Help a pro musician choose a new DAC and AMP setup

[gpunique]

Hi everyone. I’m a pro trumpet player and recently decided its time to upgrade some more of my sound equipment. I ran across your site while researching new headphones and am so impressed at your reviews and how helpful your community is. That research snowballed (that never happens, right ) and I realized that I reeeeeeeaaaaaalllly need to update my DAC and amp. 5 years ago I bought the Audioengine N22 gen 1 (don’t hate me!) for a quick solution to plug into my PC and bought KEF q150 passive speakers to use in my small studio practice space. I never loved that but it was an all in 1, yet distorts easily. I use it mainly to play along with orchestra recordings, often fairly loud. I wish I had returned it and gotten other equipment but oh well. While researching new cans on your site this week I searched for that unit to see if any reviews had been posted and low and behold the review was scathing and more than confirmed what I knew. So now I’m about to upgrade lots of audio gear and would really love your thoughts. I plan on buying Sennheiser HD 600’s or similar so I do want to ensure I have enough power for my passive speakers and a nice pair of headphones. I don’t have a sub right now, but wouldn’t mind the option to add one later. I included one and done solution and individual component options I like so far. Would components be better or are the all in one units I list great for my purposes? Thanks so much for your thoughts on the options i am considering or new ones!



If I do the all in one route, DAC, headphone amp, speaker amp:

SMSL RAW-HA1 $250 top choice right now. Is the built in dac good enough? Seems like it. looks like its a slightly upgraded AO300 and cheaper.

SMSL AO300 $289

Topping MX3s $199





If I buy individual components:

DAC with headphone amp

FIIO K11 R2R $160 worth it to get r2r? top choice right now

FIIO K11 $130 or $100 recertified. Trust a recert?





Amps

Fosi Audio ZA3 $130 top choice right now. Balanced, better cooling, sub option

Fosi Audio V3 $90 no sub option

Fosi Audio TB10D $80 no sub option

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, and welcome

Your speakers are pretty nice, so that's a good start (that's the important part)
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-q150-bookshelf-speaker-review-by-erin.31249/

Electronics comes down to features and your personal preference. Everything you list will be fine, especially the DACs. There is no point in paying a premium for a different 'type' of electronics - like choosing R2R, honestly can't make a difference.

What strikes me is that you want to play along with a full orchestra (who wouldn't). That screams subwoofer to me, you want as close to full range as you can get.
Have a look at the list compiled by @sweetchaos , it's pretty amazing.
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-comparison.20494/

What that also implies is that you will need to integrate your sub. Related to that, and looking at the comments on your Kefs, you will get the best improvement to your sound if you can add DSP/PEQ/room correction.
There are other options, but I find it very hard to look past the WiiM products for PEQ/room correction and very good DACs. That will stretch your budget though.

Some subs have High Pass filtering: you route your amp to the Sub, and the Sub passes on only the frequencies above it's crossover to your Kef - that's better for your speakers and more efficient all round.

SMSL RAW H1 looks very good for the money, combine it with a subwoofer that will deal with crossover frequencies for you Kefs and that sounds even better.

 

[gpunique]

Hi, and welcome

Your speakers are pretty nice, so that's a good start (that's the important part)
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-q150-bookshelf-speaker-review-by-erin.31249/

Electronics comes down to features and your personal preference. Everything you list will be fine, especially the DACs. There is no point in paying a premium for a different 'type' of electronics - like choosing R2R, honestly can't make a difference.

What strikes me is that you want to play along with a full orchestra (who wouldn't). That screams subwoofer to me, you want as close to full range as you can get.
Have a look at the list compiled by @sweetchaos , it's pretty amazing.
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/subwoofer-comparison.20494/

What that also implies is that you will need to integrate your sub. Related to that, and looking at the comments on your Kefs, you will get the best improvement to your sound if you can add DSP/PEQ/room correction.
There are other options, but I find it very hard to look past the WiiM products for PEQ/room correction and very good DACs. That will stretch your budget though.

Some subs have High Pass filtering: you route your amp to the Sub, and the Sub passes on only the frequencies above it's crossover to your Kef - that's better for your speakers and more efficient all round.

SMSL RAW H1 looks very good for the money, combine it with a subwoofer that will deal with crossover frequencies for you Kefs and that sounds even better.

A lot of great info in here for me to digest, thanks. I briefly looked at that spreadsheet and clicked on a few. How do i tell if speakers do crossovers? do they use a different cable?

For room correction you mention, thats done on a dac? would this be a much better option with the features you mention?

S.M.S.L RAW-DAC1 AK4191+AK4499EX Digital to Analog Convertor (DAC)

shenzhenaudio.com: professional headphone, earphone, amplifier, dac, decoder, hifi player, cable supermarket. you will find good price here.

shenzhenaudio.com

but with that it may be worth selling kef and buying active speakers.


Do you think the all in one smsl is a better route than using 2 components? thanks!


also, i have a Marantz NR1403 lying around that i removed when my son was born as he would destroy it in my living room.

Marantz NR1403

5.1-channel home theater receiver

www.crutchfield.com

Its much bigger than the other components I'm looking at and i think i'd still need a DAC, right? it does have an optical input so it may be able to do the job on its own, but would a newer dac into this be dramatically better, esp with room correction you mention? i could prob just get a SMSL SU-1 for $80 since i wouldn't need a headphone amp, or would another like the Fii0 still be better? or i guess I could get a better DAC with options you mentioned, any suggested models? WiiM Pro for $150? Do you think this would help the setup or be able to wire a sub like you mentioned? Is that called Bi-Wiring?



and is this a subwoofer that would have the capabilities and in/outputs needed?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00O8YLIY6/?coliid=I7YA4HXV1C176&colid=1BWQEG9H0GOSQ&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

Sorry for all the questions but the rabbit hole just got a lot bigger

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, sorry about that - a bit of a brain dump.

A DAC just does Digital to Analogue conversion, that's all.
DSP (digital signal processing) can apply frequency adjustments - EQ - and it's best to be able to define the width as well as the amplitude of the adjustment at any frequency - Parametric EQ, or PEQ.
Room correction is the automated application of PEQ and other tweaks based on measurements of your actual room.
DSP has to happen to the digital signal, before the DAC.

Very few DACs or Amps offer DSP so you mostly need separate boxes. Electronically it doesn't matter, it's about features and usability.

Full disclosure, I'm not a big subwoofer expert. Hopefully someone else will comment and advise.
Simplest route is a DAC or amp with a subwoofer output. I can't follow your Amazon link - what was the model?
That's not biwiring btw, just one way of cabling a sub. Don't worry about biwiring (read about if you like, but basically it's pointless).

Interestingly, your Marantz does a whole lot of good things including proper subwoofer management and room correction. I said you mostly need separate boxes - but AVRs are different. This does everything you want. Not a huge amount of power, but quite possibly enough.
No question, for me, hook up the Marantz and investigate its room correction features. Add a sub later if you want a bigger sound.

Get used to it, and you have a good platform to upgrade from. Genuinely, the Marantz may be everything you need!

Share here in how you find it and you should get help with the adjustments.

 

[gpunique]

I have been trying my marazntz and it is great except its huge on my desk. i probably will put it back in my media room soon so i should keep researching a studio option. I keep finding roadblocks and things that aren't ideal and my brian is hurting at this point!
SMSL is out since the recent review by Amir shows the heaphone amp is horrendous.

so here are a few other thoughts.
Fiio K11 was a top pick but not sure now since i use headphones and speakers often and it seems you have to use th 1 button to go into software to switch inputs every time. That will grow thin very quickly i think.

thw wiim could be good but.... the wiim pro plus has a better dac aparantly but costs more. and no headphone out. so i'd need
wiim-headphone amp-passive speaker amp like fosi za3
so now we're spending at least $450 which is fine but maybe better to find something the isnt hodge podge. BUT could be nice to swap equipment later.

or i could do
Topping DX3 pro+ with Fosi ZA3, that has a remote to switch inputs at least.

Then I just saw that Wiim makes 2 amps that can power passive speakers..... but no headphone amp. so at least $400 as well. would a simple rca splitter be enough power for hd 600 headphones? or would i need i need an amp? And how would i then be able to switch between speakers and headphones easily?


Any thoughts on these or others?

 

[JeremyFife]

It's a minefield, isn't it

Good thing is that, choose sensibly and all these options will give you a very good sound.

I'd want to keep a DSP option - so that mandates a WiiM product somewhere. That's my preference though.

How about the WiiM Amp (the Pro for preference, for better load independence - doesn't really matter practically) and a simple headphone dongle connected to it's USB out?
Cheap (ish), effective and upgradable.

I use a Topping L50 headphone amp because it works as pass-through so it's there when I want it, and not when I don't. Adds some expense though.

 

[DavidM1]

I’m a pro trumpet player and recently decided its time to upgrade some more of my sound equipment

Hi, I’ve recently been through a similar process. I’m a professional guitarist/ teacher and I upgraded the hifi for my rehearsal/ teaching space, essentially a large double bedroom size.

The speakers are B&W 601 S3 on stands. No subwoofer. The DAC I chose was an SMSL C200. It has an excellent sinad measurement and a very good headphone out and remote. This feeds a pair of Fosi V3 monos via balanced outputs. Frankly, the sound is excellent and the convenience of one remote with auto on/off for the amps is a big advantage.

I never expected to use the bluetooth input for the DAC but it’s quick and easy when teaching. The main input is optical from a WiiM mini but I also use a cheap Sony Blu-ray as CD transport via coax. I occasionally use the usb input for high res files via iPad or phone.

Good luck with the research.

 

[gpunique]

Thanks everyone for the thought an info. its a fun project but a bit mind numbing at the same time. I ran across a few new options and wanted to get opinions.

OPTION 1 $399
The most exciting one being the Emotiva TA 1

BasX TA1 Stereo Preamp/DAC/Tuner With Integrated Amplifier

The TA1 is a stereo preamplifier, which includes a stereo FM tuner, inputs for line level analog sources, and a built-in DAC. Shop online today!

emotiva.com

This integrates everything and reminds me of my AVR but without the V. I wish it wasn't the same damn size though, but from reviews I have seen people seem to LOVE this thing and its on sale for $399 right now instead of $599. Thats the same or cheaper from some of my current scenarios so i'm very intrigued. What is surprising, and maybe not great, is the lack of reviews on this site. I would think if its as good as people say, that it should have already been on the radar of folks here. So what do you think?

OPTION 2 $420
Before I found that today, my thoughts were going more to 3 separate components so i could get exactly, or close, to what I want. The other idea was a JDS Labs Atom 2 Stack combo (DAC and AMP) with the Fosi ZA3. No remote but i can live without one for my intentions.

Atom 2 Bundle - Shop JDS Labs

We built Atom Amp 2 for those who demand more. Atom Amp 2 is like Atom Amp+ on steroids. It's housed in an aluminum chassis with an easier to grip knob, featuring both 4.4mm and 6.35mm headphone jacks, failsafe DC protection, and octo-buffers pumping out more than twice the power of Atom Amp+...

jdslabs.com

OPTION 3 $270
Fiio k11
Fosi Za3


OPTION 4 $420+
Wiim pro
Fosi Za3
Topping l30ii or jds amp


The Wiim amp sounded like a good possible fit but it doesn't allow for a headphone amp. I know maybe a USB dongle could work but it seems a little bit like a duct tape fix for making do instead of getting it right. plus my system will connected to a PC so i dont really need the streaming. I think Option 4 would be a better all around, if i wanted to go the Wiim route to have their room sound correction software.

So i think i finally have some things more understood but still not fully dialed in, which i would like to have before black friday sales start. Thanks again for reading and your thoughts!

 

[gpunique]

I think the Emotiva is out. Some people seems bonkers for it, but pretty terrible reviews too. I dont like going with a questionable setup but it sure looking promising.

But i did find this from SVS which looks pretty great and on a nice sale for

SVS Prime Wireless Pro SoundBase | Streaming Integrated Amp

Bring speakers into the future of immersive sound with Apple Airplay 2, Chromecast, WiFi, HDMI, and more.

www.svsound.com

Thoughts on this and the other options from my previous post?

 

[DavidM1]

One reason I hang around ASR is the pleasure in seeing which equipment measures well and which doesn’t. I’ve learnt a lot.

I don’t know this amp and I haven’t seen test results so it is in that broad category of equipment that isn’t on my radar and I wouldn’t consider buying.

 

[gpunique]

So I think i may want all components at this point instead of an all in 1. Still not opposed to the SVS. Recently run across several other options too. In no particular order


OPTION 1 $420
JDS Labs Atom 2 Stack combo (DAC and AMP) with the Fosi ZA3. No remote but i can live without one for my intentions.

OPTION 2 $270
Fiio k11
Fosi Za3

Option 3 $337
SMSL SU-1
headphone amp like atom 2 or TOPPING L30 II
Fosi ZA3

OPTION 4 $420+
Wiim pro
Fosi Za3
Topping l30ii or jds amp

Option 5 $400
TOPPING E30 II DAC
TOPPING L30 II Amp
Fosi Za3


Bunch of different directions, but maybe #2 is a great option, then i buy a subwoofer too. Wiim would be nice for room correction and eq, but not sure if that really would impact my small room that much. I like that jds has stellar reviews and is made in usa but i also know the topping and smsl options are solid too and may have better dacs overall.
What do you guys think for the best combo? Thanks!

 

[gpunique]

The SMSL DL100 could also be a good fit to combine 2 products, like the Fiio does. Better than Fiio? Plus it has bluetooth and a remote.

EDIT. I'm a little confused with this SMSL. It uses the CS43131 chip which is also used in the SMSL SMSL RAW-HA 1 which amir just reviewed and was noted that the headphone amp wasn't good at all. That chip does both dac and headphone amp processing, yet on the DL100 it scored wonderfully. Wouldn't that chip work the same in both? Maybe one of his units was faulty?

the SMSL RAW-MDA 1 had my attention too until i heard its chip was known for popping.

 

[JeremyFife]

Room correction / DSP/PEQ can make a bigger difference than almost anything else.
You plan to add a sub? You'll want to integrate it.

WiiM Amp... does everything, does it well.

 

[gpunique]

Room correction / DSP/PEQ can make a bigger difference than almost anything else.
You plan to add a sub? You'll want to integrate it.

WiiM Amp... does everything, does it well.

Prob with wiim amp is no headphone option. Some say you can connect a headphone amp via the USB port but how would I do that? A USB to RCA adapter, if they exist?
Wouldn't my wiim pro combo above be better?

And yes I'd love a sub. What do you mean by integrate it? Don't you just plug it in?

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi,
There are plenty of usb 'dongles' that you can use, starting from the very basic (still very good) Thread 'Review: Apple vs Google USB-C Headphone Adapters' https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...pple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/

Have a look at the Review Index: electronics/Headphone Amp (Dongle)/Recommended if you want more features etc

You can just plug in a Sub. However, often you will find that it sounds too boomy, or too quiet... the WiiM lets you adjust the crossover frequency (control over which frequencies go to the sub and which to your main speakers) Also has Room correction which adjusts for your speakers and sub in your room.

Practically, all your options are good - you won't go wrong and all this is splitting hairs, plus my own personal preference.

Btw, if you go for the WiiM Pro it would be worth upgrading to the Pro Plus for the better DAC.

Think about aesthetics and features that matter to you. Then enjoy

 

[Roland68]

So I think i may want all components at this point instead of an all in 1. Still not opposed to the SVS. Recently run across several other options too. In no particular order


OPTION 1 $420
JDS Labs Atom 2 Stack combo (DAC and AMP) with the Fosi ZA3. No remote but i can live without one for my intentions.

OPTION 2 $270
Fiio k11
Fosi Za3

Option 3 $337
SMSL SU-1
headphone amp like atom 2 or TOPPING L30 II
Fosi ZA3

OPTION 4 $420+
Wiim pro
Fosi Za3
Topping l30ii or jds amp

Option 5 $400
TOPPING E30 II DAC
TOPPING L30 II Amp
Fosi Za3


Bunch of different directions, but maybe #2 is a great option, then i buy a subwoofer too. Wiim would be nice for room correction and eq, but not sure if that really would impact my small room that much. I like that jds has stellar reviews and is made in usa but i also know the topping and smsl options are solid too and may have better dacs overall.
What do you guys think for the best combo? Thanks!

Since you are a musician, I would advise you against the all-in-one devices, also because I have the AO300 here and know it very well.

My recommendation would be individual devices.
- The SU-1 listed is highly recommended as a DAC.
- The Sabaj A20h as a headphone amplifier.
- The two Fosi ZA3 and V3 listed are very good as amplifiers, so I would recommend the 48 volt power supply.
- Alternatively, from my experience, the Topping PA5 II is also highly recommended, but it is also a bit more expensive.

You also need an RCA switch and a few additional cables to distribute the DAC to the two amplifiers.
Balanced cables have no advantage at such short lengths if the devices are close together.

There are good EQ solutions for PCs and MACs if those are your sources. In my opinion, the money would be better spent on a USB measurement microphone for room measurement than on a WiiM.

A word about the Sabaj A20H, a true symmetrical HPA, including relay-based volume control with absolute channel equality, remote control, display, symmetrical input and true symmetrical output with a maximum of 4.7 watts at 32 ohms.
Amirm tested it and confirmed its good performance.
For around 120 €/$ or less, it is, in my opinion, an absolute bargain and has the best price-performance ratio on the market.

 

[gpunique]

Since you are a musician, I would advise you against the all-in-one devices, also because I have the AO300 here and know it very well.

My recommendation would be individual devices.
- The SU-1 listed is highly recommended as a DAC.
- The Sabaj A20h as a headphone amplifier.
- The two Fosi ZA3 and V3 listed are very good as amplifiers, so I would recommend the 48 volt power supply.
- Alternatively, from my experience, the Topping PA5 II is also highly recommended, but it is also a bit more expensive.

You also need an RCA switch and a few additional cables to distribute the DAC to the two amplifiers.
Balanced cables have no advantage at such short lengths if the devices are close together.

There are good EQ solutions for PCs and MACs if those are your sources. In my opinion, the money would be better spent on a USB measurement microphone for room measurement than on a WiiM.

A word about the Sabaj A20H, a true symmetrical HPA, including relay-based volume control with absolute channel equality, remote control, display, symmetrical input and true symmetrical output with a maximum of 4.7 watts at 32 ohms.
Amirm tested it and confirmed its good performance.
For around 120 €/$ or less, it is, in my opinion, an absolute bargain and has the best price-performance ratio on the market.

Thanks so much for your suggestions. I just quick researched some of those options. For the sabaj, would RCA splitters work instead of a switch? That would be simpler and I could just turn the za3 on or off when I use my speakers. Would a splitter cable degrade the sound much?
I'm already cringing at 3 components on my desktop, having to add a switch would make it 4 and more cables.... Yikes

 

[Roland68]

Thanks so much for your suggestions. I just quick researched some of those options. For the sabaj, would RCA splitters work instead of a switch? That would be simpler and I could just turn the za3 on or off when I use my speakers. Would a splitter cable degrade the sound much?
I'm already cringing at 3 components on my desktop, having to add a switch would make it 4 and more cables.... Yikes

The splitter cable should work.
You could also use a DAC with 2 outputs, RCA and balanced, but that would be more expensive.
Eg SMSL M300SE, Topping D50 III with EQ or the new Fosi ZD3 DAC, for which there are no test reports yet.

 

[kemmler3D]

I like your WiiM option 4 pretty well. The nice thing is you also get multi-room streaming with that if you want to add some WiiM minis around the house later.

But as @JeremyFife mentions, the EQ is a big deal. IMO it's almost a requirement if you're adding a sub. It makes it a lot easier to get good sound out of it.

I also happen to think JDS gear is nice, and it's from a US-based company which can make service inquiries easier depending on where you live. Which is not to say I have had bad experiences with Topping, either.

 

[davmol]

I think if I'm spending my own money today, with your criteria, I'm going for the following:

• Aiyima A70 amp, should be under $175 with a 48v/5 amp power supply.
• Topping DX3 Pro+ DAC/AMP Combo, at c$200

Then you can throw in a WiiM Mini later if you want streaming and PEQ (can just use APO/Peace when on PC).