Help a newbie make the best of his living room :)

[fpug]

Hi,

Newbie here. I live in a modern apartment building, due to various constraints I designed the living room as such:

Please try to appreciate the abuse of a flowcharting tool for artistic purposes.
I am located in Europe, have a budget of around 3k at the very top for the complete system, and need to decide how to go about it.

The units are quite well insulated, and I plan to use the system at mainly at low to moderate volumes.
Room surfaces (the rectangles) are quite heterogenous in height, materials, geometry.

The distance between the speakers (the S in the picture) is about 1.6 meters (5 ft 3 in), distance from speakers to the center of the sofa is about 1.8 meters (5 ft 9 in).
The room edges are about 5 meters (16 ft) long, for reference.

Ideally I'd want something that sounds good anywhere in the room, but I understand that might not be easy.
The most important sweet spot is the sofa, ideally as much of it as possible.

I listen to a variety of musical genres, I guess my preference would err on a slightly euphonic, not too fatiguing sound, still rather neutral and detailed, with good imaging and soundstage.
I want to be mesmerised while listening to Pink Floyd. I would consider also using the system for watching TV.

I am willing to do some room treatment (which?) as long as I can make it work aesthetically and logistically.
As you can see there's corners and the distance from the wall is quite limited.

All this said: what do you suggest?

A current idea of mine:

- speakers: Ascilab F6Bs, lean on bass and sealed, so maybe less problematic in corners
- sub: one SVS 3000 micro, to place along the wall between the two speakers (and keep at low volume, probably on an isolation pad)
- dsp: something like a wiim ultra, with room correction
- amp: no precise idea, something affordable but suited to drive the above speakers

And I think this would work out at around 2000 euros. I have fears about the directivity, the single sub and its placement.
I would consider a fully active system but I'm not sure I can get something better performing at this price point.

What are your thoughts? Insights and alternative suggestions are very much welcome.


Thanks!!!!

 

[Doodski]

Your diagram does not indicated the complete floor plan with walls etc and so it is incomplete for speaker planning. Where are the walls. Walls are critically important because they determine the sound of the speakers.

 

[fpug]

Your diagram does not indicated the complete floor plan with walls etc and so it is incomplete for speaker planning. Where are the walls. Walls are critically important because they determine the sound of the speakers.

What you see is the whole room. The walls are the edges of the square. One of the walls consists mostly of double glazed, close-to-room-height windows.

Happy to add extra details if needed!

 

[Power Pop 23]

Hi,

Newbie here. I live in a modern apartment building, due to various constraints I designed the living room as such:

View attachment 484464

Please try to appreciate the abuse of a flowcharting tool for artistic purposes.
I am located in Europe, have a budget of around 3k at the very top for the complete system, and need to decide how to go about it.

The units are quite well insulated, and I plan to use the system at mainly at low to moderate volumes.
Room surfaces (the rectangles) are quite heterogenous in height, materials, geometry.

The distance between the speakers (the S in the picture) is about 1.6 meters (5 ft 3 in), distance from speakers to the center of the sofa is about 1.8 meters (5 ft 9 in).
The room edges are about 5 meters (16 ft) long, for reference.

Ideally I'd want something that sounds good anywhere in the room, but I understand that might not be easy.
The most important sweet spot is the sofa, ideally as much of it as possible.

I listen to a variety of musical genres, I guess my preference would err on a slightly euphonic, not too fatiguing sound, still rather neutral and detailed, with good imaging and soundstage.
I want to be mesmerised while listening to Pink Floyd. I would consider also using the system for watching TV.

I am willing to do some room treatment (which?) as long as I can make it work aesthetically and logistically.
As you can see there's corners and the distance from the wall is quite limited.

All this said: what do you suggest?

A current idea of mine:

- speakers: Ascilab F6Bs, lean on bass and sealed, so maybe less problematic in corners
- sub: one SVS 3000 micro, to place along the wall between the two speakers (and keep at low volume, probably on an isolation pad)
- dsp: something like a wiim ultra, with room correction
- amp: no precise idea, something affordable but suited to drive the above speakers

And I think this would work out at around 2000 euros. I have fears about the directivity, the single sub and its placement.
I would consider a fully active system but I'm not sure I can get something better performing at this price point.

What are your thoughts? Insights and alternative suggestions are very much welcome.


Thanks!!!!

Welcome to ASR !

I think your choices for loudspeakers, subwoofer, and DSP will all work well in your space.

I would consider the WiiM Vibelink amplifier for its' similar aesthetic with the WiiM Ultra.

Other amplifiers can drive the AsciLab F6BS, like the WiiM Amp Ultra - if the WiiM Amp Ultra supports the sources you use.

 

[Doodski]

What you see is the whole room. The walls are the edges of the square. One of the walls consists mostly of double glazed, close-to-room-height windows.

Happy to add extra details if needed!

OK. It makes sense now. With all those windows and the open space/open floor plan space you will benefit from using EQ/PEQ very much. Do you plan on streaming audio and video from a PC in your living room?

 

[DanielT]

I would consider also using the system for watching TV.

Hello and welcome to ASR.

You say I would also consider using the system for watching TV.
That's probably the first thing you should weigh in. How much music vs. TV? 50% of each? By TV do you mean movies and series? If you're going to watch movies mostly, a home theater is a good solution. Mostly music and just a little TV, maybe 2.1 speakers plus subwoofer.
So it depends.

I am willing to do some room treatment (which?) as long as I can make it work aesthetically and logistically.

-Thick window blinds /curtains at the window closest to the speakers.


(prices in SEK on the Temu screenshot)

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-Side damping using some type of cut-out mattress on the side wall by the window, the corner that is.Or something else thickly absorbent (thickness of at least 5 cm to be effective). In smaller rooms, it can be said that absorption of the first side wall reflections becomes more important compared to larger rooms.
-Thick carpet in front of the speakers.
These were some suggestions I came up with now. Dampen, absorb, as much as you think it sounds good. Not too much then it will be a dry and dull sound.
-Good bass, even bass FR you fix with the help of EQ. Manual such or automatic room correction EQ.

 

[fpug]

OK. It makes sense now. With all those windows and the open space/open floor plan space you will benefit from using EQ/PEQ very much. Do you plan on streaming audio and video from a PC in your living room?

I haven't considered that option specifically, are you asking because of some software I could install?
Ideally I'd like a lean hub that allows me to play content from many sources (my laptop, music streaming apps, local library, tv, etc)

Hello and welcome to ASR.

You say I would also consider using the system for watching TV.
That's probably the first thing you should weigh in. How much music vs. TV? 50% of each? By TV do you mean movies and series? If you're going to watch movies mostly, a home theater is a good solution. Mostly music and just a little TV, maybe 2.1 speakers plus subwoofer.
So it depends.

(...)

Side damping using some type of cut-out mattress on the side wall by the window, the corner that is.
Thick carpet in front of the speakers.
These were some suggestions I came up with now. Dampen, absorb, as much as you think it sounds good. Not too much then it will be a dry and dull sound.
Good bass, even FR you fix with the help of EQ. Manual such or automatic room correction EQ.

Thanks, all welcome suggestions! I guess the aim is to dampen the effect of the problematic reflective surfaces. A carpet is definitely an option.

As for the content... I vastly prioritise music quality over "movie sound". My guess is that as long as the mids are clear and maybe I fiddle a bit with the subwoofer settings, the movie watching experience should be fine - but maybe I'm mistaken. I could consider having a different equalisation setting for that. But, being mesmerised by Pink Floyd (and some folk music, and some airy minimal techno, and some contrabass-heavy jazz...) is definitely priority number one.

Another doubt I have: would two subwoofers make sense in this space? They don't come cheap, and I don't have all the flexibility in placing them, which is what is stopping me a bit.

 

[dualazmak]

You may expect much more nice suggestions for room acoustic improvements if you would also attach some photos of your room.
What kind of photos would help? You would please find some examples in my post #687 and in latter half of my post #931, both on my project thread.

 

[dualazmak]

Another doubt I have: would two subwoofers make sense in this space? They don't come cheap, and I don't have all the flexibility in placing them, which is what is stopping me a bit.

I believe that "yes, two subwoofers make sense!".
Just for your possible reference and interest, please visit the following two posts (where you can listen to reference YouTube clips having nice bass sounds);

- Reproduction and listening/hearing/feeling sensations to 16 Hz (organ) sound with my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system having big-heavy active L&R sub-woofers: #782

- A nice smooth-jazz album for bass (low Fq) and higher Fq tonality check and tuning: #63(remote thread)

And, you are cordially invited to my independent thread entitled "An Attempt Sharing Reference Quality Music Playlist: at least a portion and/or whole track being analyzed by 3D color spectrum of Adobe Audition", where you can find several "reference quality music tracks" which give you "rationales" for L&R subwoofers.

 

[Doodski]

I haven't considered that option specifically, are you asking because of some software I could install?
Ideally I'd like a lean hub that allows me to play content from many sources (my laptop, music streaming apps, local library, tv, etc)

Installing free EQ/PEQ software and using REQ with a calibrated ~$70 USB microphone will absolutely improve the sound from all speakers that you will use/buy. EQ/PEQ is the sole biggest improvement you can make other than buying better speakers and even then you should EQ/PEQ the new speakers too.

To get free EQ/PEQ install into a Win PC this and then this in that order. Open Peace EQ to use the GUI. To calibrate the audio system use this free software and this ~$70 USD calibrated microphone plugged into the USB port on your laptop PC. The improvement will be major.

The amount of movies, music videos, music tracks etc available online is humongous. Virtually everything is available for streaming for reasonable rates for full access of AD FREE access in some cases. For example YouTube has access with ads and for ad free service in Canada where I am a $13.64 charge monthly gets me 100% ad free access with the higher quality audio service too and access to everything with no limits to the amount I may view. After using ad free service I can never go back to service with ads. For movies I was using Netflix and Amazon Prime too with the ad free option on Amazon Prime. I cancelled Netflix last month because for the 4K high quality picture option that my big screen TV needs it was ~$27 per month for Netflix where Amazon Prime with the ad free option costs me in total ~$13.63 including free shipping on ALL purchases and returns when I buy stuff from Amazon and free streaming music from Amazon Music. I think Amazon Prime has more offerings than Netflix too. The deal from Amazon simply makes Netflix look like very very expensive for the limited service that it provides. So streaming is a major major part of an AV or audio system now and to not have at least one streaming plan would be severely restricting and silly.

 

[DanielT]

Installing free EQ/PEQ software and using REQ with a calibrated ~$70 USB microphone will absolutely improve the sound from all speakers that you will use/buy. EQ/PEQ is the sole biggest improvement you can make other than buying better speakers and even then you should EQ/PEQ the new speakers too.

To get free EQ/PEQ install into a Win PC this and then this in that order. Open Peace EQ to use the GUI. To calibrate the audio system use this free software and this ~$70 USD calibrated microphone plugged into the USB port on your laptop PC. The improvement will be major.

The amount of movies, music videos, music tracks etc available online is humongous. Virtually everything is available for streaming for reasonable rates for full access of AD FREE access in some cases. For example YouTube has access with ads and for ad free service in Canada where I am a $13.64 charge monthly gets me 100% ad free access with the higher quality audio service too and access to everything with no limits to the amount I may view. After using ad free service I can never go back to service with ads. For movies I was using Netflix and Amazon Prime too with the ad free option on Amazon Prime. I cancelled Netflix last month because for the 4K high quality picture option that my big screen TV needs it was ~$27 per month for Netflix where Amazon Prime with the ad free option costs me in total ~$13.63 including free shipping on ALL purchases and returns when I buy stuff from Amazon and free streaming music from Amazon Music. I think Amazon Prime has more offerings than Netflix too. The deal from Amazon simply makes Netflix look like very very expensive for the limited service that it provides. So streaming is a major major part of an AV or audio system now and to not have at least one streaming plan would be severely restricting and silly.

Good suggestion but if (?) @fpug is thinking about an all in one solution, WiiM Amp Ultra could be a good choice. It has PEQ. Manual and automatic with WiiM RoomFit. Plus it's a streamer/DAC and amp all in one.
And I almost forgot this:

This is a good thing about WiiM Amp Ultra:

Post Filter Feedback (PFFB) technology further enhances load-independent performance across all speaker types, delivering cleaner sound and improved amplifier control, especially for complex loads.

WiiM Amp Ultra: Performance Meets Precision

We’re thrilled to introduce our most refined streaming amplifier yet, the WiiM Amp Ultra, a high-performance powerhouse built for discerning listeners. Encased in a sleek unibody aluminum chassis with a vibrant 3.5” glass touchscreen, it delivers 100W per channel at 8Ω or 200W at 4Ω, driving up...

forum.wiimhome.com

A Dayton Audio iMM-6C might be good in that case instead of using the phone's microphone. Here are the measurements, #7 in the thread below, with that Dayton microphone compared with:
Software : Room Analyzer II Pro (V2.35 beta)
Interface : XTZ Audio USB card
Mic : XTZ calibrated microphone:

SVS SB 1000 PRO + Polk R100 + Wiim Amp Pro : Speakers 2.1 Measurements

Hi amigos, I tried some measurements of my current system. Please put the measurements into perspective and thank you in advance for your indulgence as I am not an expert in this area. Please note that I did several listening tests before taking measurements. Several people recommended using...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[fpug]

I can see how pictures would help, just now it looks a bit like a warzone. Maybe I'll add a couple in the next days.

And it does seem that two properly configured subwoofers are better than one, even at low volumes, the problem is that I can either place them along the wall with the speakers, or maybe (maybe!) I could have one asymmetrically located behind the sofa, close to the windows. So I risk being in the situation in which two subwoofers are worse than one, due to lack of careful placement. I guess I could start with one and try adding the other down the line, making sure that my dsp already allows for that option?
It feels a bit odd to budget twice as much for the subwoofers compared to what I would be spending for the speakers.

I would indeed prefer an all in one streamer (a la wiim ultra) to having a computer always on, especially one running Windows
But I do understand that room tweaking and correction will definitely be very important.

Do you have any alternative speakers / subwoofer suggestions?

 

[Deleted member 89782]

No one can predict what will be ‚the best‘ in your environment. And I wouldn‘t be too sientific about it.
First of all, cut out on the sub! I know, everybody has one these days, but they are just a hassle in every regard and always in the way. Get some decent speakers of your choice and a WiiM AmpUltra. You will probably have to reduce the gain at ca. 60 Hz to get the unwanted ‚boom‘ out of your system (no problem with the WiiM’ EQ settings). But you will still have sufficient bass. Your living room isn’t a club.
Play around with toe-in angles of the speakers to get the best result and just enjoy it.
You can do a lot of faffing around, but my advice is to keep it simple. 10% of the investment and hassle with 90% of the result is my motto.

 

[DanielT]

Do you have any alternative speakers / subwoofer suggestions?

Some tips:

Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased new and drop shipped to me for testing. The DBR-62 costs US $600 a pair from multiple sources/dealers. The DBR-62 comes in black and walnut finish or the distressed Oak and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 Review (Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 bookshelf speaker. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs US $399 for a pair. The look and feel of the 12.1 is definitely above the budget category: The back is rather pedestrian but...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Revel M105 Bookshelf Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Revel M105 Bookshelf/stand-mount speaker. A member was interested in it so I decided to buy it through our company. The retail cost is US $750 each for a total of $1,500 for a pair. NOTE: my company, Madrona Digital is a dealer for Harman and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Ascend Sierra-1 V2 Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 V2 bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $998 for a pair ($948 on sale). The finish is nice enough. The cabinet feels quite heavy for its size and especially in the front...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Audio First Fidelia on Erin’s Audio Corner

This looks to be an excellent speaker design. Similar to the Ascilab C5B although DIY construction. Audio First are local to me so I am tempted to try and get a demo…

www.audiosciencereview.com

I measured 10 subwoofers.

Hi, it's been a while! I would like to thank the people who made this project possible on a scale never before imagined in South Korea. I measured a total of 10 subwoofers, including my own DIY subwoofer(L26RO4Y), and measured them to the CEA-2010 standard using a Klippel TBM module. Below are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Deleted member 89782]

No one can predict what will be ‚the best‘ in your environment. And I wouldn‘t be too sientific about it.
First of all, cut out on the sub! I know, everybody has one these days, but they are just a hassle in every regard and always in the way. Get some decent speakers of your choice and a WiiM AmpUltra. You will probably have to reduce the gain at ca. 60 Hz to get the unwanted ‚boom‘ out of your system (no problem with the WiiM’ EQ settings). But you will still have sufficient bass. Your living room isn’t a club.
Play around with toe-in angles of the speakers to get the best result and just enjoy it.
You can do a lot of faffing around, but my advice is to keep it simple. 10% of the investment and hassle with 90% of the result is my motto.

Just to give you an impression of my setup.

No sub anywhere. And my bass reproduction is absolutely satisfactory. Yes, my speakers are a little further up the range (Dali Epicon 2) but I‘m sure there are alterenatives to meet your budget.

 

[fpug]

No one can predict what will be ‚the best‘ in your environment. And I wouldn‘t be too sientific about it.
First of all, cut out on the sub! I know, everybody has one these days, but they are just a hassle in every regard and always in the way. Get some decent speakers of your choice and a WiiM AmpUltra. You will probably have to reduce the gain at ca. 60 Hz to get the unwanted ‚boom‘ out of your system (no problem with the WiiM’ EQ settings). But you will still have sufficient bass. Your living room isn’t a club.
Play around with toe-in angles of the speakers to get the best result and just enjoy it.
You can do a lot of faffing around, but my advice is to keep it simple. 10% of the investment and hassle with 90% of the result is my motto.

My reasoning there was... my speakers will unfortunately be a bit corner-located, and also close to the wall (20 cm / 7 in or so).
So I figured (maybe wrongly) that the best way to get good tight bass is to move the woofers away, to their own location.

thanks for all the links, gonna do some reading

 

[Deleted member 89782]

My reasoning there was... my speakers will unfortunately be a bit corner-located, and also close to the wall (20 cm / 7 in or so).
So I figured (maybe wrongly) that the best way to get good tight bass is to move the woofers away, to their own location.

thanks for all the links, gonna do some reading

A common problem. But there are speakers that can easily deal with little distance to the back wall. Mine don‘t have any more room either,

 

[DanielT]

Just to give you an impression of my setup.
View attachment 484486

No sub anywhere. And my bass reproduction is absolutely satisfactory. Yes, my speakers are a little further up the range (Dali Epicon 2) but I‘m sure there are alterenatives to meet your budget.

Although it might be nice for TS to better feel when the helicopter starts rumbling in there via a sub, then the bass and drums fill in:

Especially if higher volume is desired in such listening situations. A bass taste thing for sure. TS can try it out.

If the bookshelf speakers are going to be on stands, they will take up space as a pair of floor-standing speakers. Maybe a floor-standing ones and skip the subwoofer? For example, these:

While the Aurora 1000s had bass, it was not exaggerated bass. Nonetheless, they could belt out the low frequencies when called upon to do so by “Not Forever.” Kick drums were given genuine punch, and bass lines had enough muscle that subs were not needed to get the intended sensation of this music. Subwoofers might have added a bit more grunt and made the lower notes a bit thicker, but the Aurora 1000s definitely brought the mid-bass thump as well as some deep bass rumble

HECO Aurora 1000 Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review

The German made Heco Aurora 1000 floor-standing speakers ($799/ea) were put through the wringer with our in depth measurement testing and yielded surprising results. Are these the speakers to get?

www.audioholics.com

(Plus together with for example Douk A5 Amplifer, Wiim Mini, Topping E30 II Lite DAC and Dayton Audio iMM-6C then within TS budget)

Okay, it might require some work to put together a good integrated sound sub-speaker, but if TS is interested in tinkering with it, there is potential to get a really good Hifi sound.

 

[Deleted member 89782]

Although it might be nice for TS to better feel when the helicopter starts rumbling in there via a sub, then the bass and drums fill in:

Especially if higher volume is desired in such listening situations. A bass taste thing for sure. TS can try it out.

If the bookshelf speakers are going to be on stands, they will take up space as a pair of floor-standing speakers. Maybe a floor-standing ones and skip the subwoofer? For example, these:

While the Aurora 1000s had bass, it was not exaggerated bass. Nonetheless, they could belt out the low frequencies when called upon to do so by “Not Forever.” Kick drums were given genuine punch, and bass lines had enough muscle that subs were not needed to get the intended sensation of this music. Subwoofers might have added a bit more grunt and made the lower notes a bit thicker, but the Aurora 1000s definitely brought the mid-bass thump as well as some deep bass rumble

HECO Aurora 1000 Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review

The German made Heco Aurora 1000 floor-standing speakers ($799/ea) were put through the wringer with our in depth measurement testing and yielded surprising results. Are these the speakers to get?

www.audioholics.com

Okay, it might require some work to put together a good integrated sound sub-speaker, but if TS is interested in tinkering with it, there is potential to get a really good Hifi sound.

An all-time favorite of mine. And in my system I cannot reproduce what this has to offer re. bass to the full extent. BUT people are confusing the razzle-dazzle of public events produced on PA equipment with home HiFi these days,
Yes, you can get it into your home, but only with major room treatment or the also largely hyped room correction will take it all away again.

Regarding bookshelf speakers on stands, a lot of the undesirable problems can be overcome by haveing some custom wallmounts made. Mine cost me 100 EUR with my local metal worker.

 

[krabapple]

You don't say how loud you like to listen to music. That matters. And its pretty much impossible to predict beyond generalities, from just a room diagram. (You could try downloading the free Room EQ Wizard (REW) software and modeling your room and speakers in its prediction tool)

Generally: if you are happy with your bass, stick with what you have; otherwise, playing with subwoofer placement/number,and DSP, could improve matters. (For example, if you think you might be getting too much SBIR from speaker placement close to the wall, DSP could knock it down without having to do different speaker placement)

If you are unhappy with the higher frequecies, then speaker angling, room treatments, and/or DSP, depending, might help.

(Personally I'd favor seating facing the windows , which would give you a bit more space between speakers to play with...and you could have curtain behind them to do some front wall absorption. It would also put your speakers in more similar reflective environments, whereas in your current plan, they are quite different.)


And hey, if you really want to be transported by playing Pink Floyd music, you might consider a surround setup. Even if it's just for upmixing those classic stereo mixes.