if there was a mistake for the test, it must be corrected or the test must be repeated completely... but, it is an injustice to leave the photo of the dac with the beheaded panther on the first page... forgive me but I don't understand ?
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Hegel HD12 DSD DAC And Headphone Amp Review
- Thread starter amirm
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OP
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- #62
All the tests were repeated.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #63
I assume you guys are here to read the measurements, not see a picture of a product one way or the other. That is there for entertainment purposes.
if I look at the picture on the first page and I also look at your conclusion... I'm going to deduce that it's a trash can and I'm not going to waste my time looking at the measurements or I'm just switching to ASR? Or am I not very curious?
but the harm to society is done... it's not very good publicity. but if it's your decision I suppose it has a basis. So I respect it
but the harm to society is done... it's not very good publicity. but if it's your decision I suppose it has a basis. So I respect it
Amir, I agree with fredoamigo. You have to scroll to a lot of posts to find out the measurements were redone.
I would at least put an extra first line in your first post pointing to the new measurements.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #66
There is a link with bolded red color to point to new measurements in the review. I put that there immediately after I post the correction.
I now see that you did add a disclaimer just before the results, that should do the same to some extend.
KSTR
Major Contributor
[rant]
This thread is a good example for the general trend of decreasing content quality and I'm sorry to say that this is mostly triggered by Amir himself with his choosen policy to give an overall rating based on a plain, non-compensated performance-to-price ratio.
You simply cannot use uncompensated prices in comparisons, rather a translation from price to actual value must be made, and even better yet, don't judge a price at all unless it way out of bounds (in both ways), just leave it as a remark, not a headline.
I mean, if the exact same product were designed and made in China from one of the mass makers there and retailed at 1/10th the price, the conclusion would be "while not stellar, good enough performance and build quality, recommended". And we wouldn't see the almost shit-storm like flood of reponses.
You cannot directly compare China mass maker retail prices to what the same thing must necessarily cost when built by a small company in an expensive country. We're not talking TotalDac price policy ranges, this is about sane prices called up for sane engineering in the context of what is possible and actually required for a small undertaking to have any chance to survive, under the conditions they have to work.
So, Amir, please stop coming to unreflected conclusions, stick to the objective data (price isn't one) and preferably stop misusing the perfomance-to-price ratio for the overall panther rating.
And folks, please stop being stupid copycats jumping on trains running in the wrong direction.
[/rant]
This thread is a good example for the general trend of decreasing content quality and I'm sorry to say that this is mostly triggered by Amir himself with his choosen policy to give an overall rating based on a plain, non-compensated performance-to-price ratio.
You simply cannot use uncompensated prices in comparisons, rather a translation from price to actual value must be made, and even better yet, don't judge a price at all unless it way out of bounds (in both ways), just leave it as a remark, not a headline.
I mean, if the exact same product were designed and made in China from one of the mass makers there and retailed at 1/10th the price, the conclusion would be "while not stellar, good enough performance and build quality, recommended". And we wouldn't see the almost shit-storm like flood of reponses.
You cannot directly compare China mass maker retail prices to what the same thing must necessarily cost when built by a small company in an expensive country. We're not talking TotalDac price policy ranges, this is about sane prices called up for sane engineering in the context of what is possible and actually required for a small undertaking to have any chance to survive, under the conditions they have to work.
So, Amir, please stop coming to unreflected conclusions, stick to the objective data (price isn't one) and preferably stop misusing the perfomance-to-price ratio for the overall panther rating.
And folks, please stop being stupid copycats jumping on trains running in the wrong direction.
[/rant]
I don't think you can detach consideration of value from price. People will quite rightly have higher expectations for a more expensive product, both in terms of measured performance and also of perceived quality (materials, fit & finish, industrial design etc). Particularly in the case of DACs where in most cases the on-board DACs of devices provide perfectly acceptable audible performance and where any shortcomings they might suffer from are utterly trivial compared to potential distortion and degradation of SQ introduced by speakers and speaker set up and probably also amplifiers if considering measurement (although I also think that whatever measurements might say most amplifiers are audibly transparent if appropriately specified for their load). In a scenario where you can purchase an excellent, well made DAC at very modest cost if you decide you want a separate component then more expensive products really need to offer something special.
To use an automotive analogy, the Dacia Sandero is an excellent car if you want a good, cheap car for minimum outlay and prefer to buy new rather than second hand, if however it was directly compared to a more premium small car such as an Audi A1 or Mini with price taken out of the equation then I don't think many would vote for the Dacia despite it being an excellent product. Conversely, if you just want a good small car and aren't interested in soft touch plastics, fancy design and tech you'll probably never use then the Dacia is probably a better choice than an A1 or Mini. The difference is that in automotive it is generally pretty obvious which product is more expensive from touch point quality, on-board tech and performance (although not always).
On cost of production, you can't just pro-rata average labour costs as that ignores production efficiency, technical capability, material and component cost etc. Companies like JDS and Schiit manufacture in the US which is not a low cost economy and manage to offer products which compete with Chinese offerings on price, whilst companies like Topping, SMSL and others described as "chi-fi" are no longer just a low cost alternative to more established rivals. These days Chinese manufacturers have established themselves as respected companies in their own right in the small niche of hi-fi (which is an irrelevance to most of the world).
To use an automotive analogy, the Dacia Sandero is an excellent car if you want a good, cheap car for minimum outlay and prefer to buy new rather than second hand, if however it was directly compared to a more premium small car such as an Audi A1 or Mini with price taken out of the equation then I don't think many would vote for the Dacia despite it being an excellent product. Conversely, if you just want a good small car and aren't interested in soft touch plastics, fancy design and tech you'll probably never use then the Dacia is probably a better choice than an A1 or Mini. The difference is that in automotive it is generally pretty obvious which product is more expensive from touch point quality, on-board tech and performance (although not always).
On cost of production, you can't just pro-rata average labour costs as that ignores production efficiency, technical capability, material and component cost etc. Companies like JDS and Schiit manufacture in the US which is not a low cost economy and manage to offer products which compete with Chinese offerings on price, whilst companies like Topping, SMSL and others described as "chi-fi" are no longer just a low cost alternative to more established rivals. These days Chinese manufacturers have established themselves as respected companies in their own right in the small niche of hi-fi (which is an irrelevance to most of the world).
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Thank you for posting.
Can you please describe how you come to the -145dB noise floor spec?
https://www.hegel.com/products/discontinued/hd12
Last edited:
Tks
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Decreasing content quality? Quality of the first post of Amir, or quality of discussion in the thread?
Second, this is a review, which everyone understands is subjective. So when you say "non compensated performance to price ratio" is required, I don't understand why? Unless you're saying performance by definition also means "overall" which is nonsensical. The overall rating is a gut summation, not another measurement metric in objective reality. Amir makes posts after reviews are done, as do other users. Asking anyone for a close alternative of a device if one desires, is only one post away if said person feels betrayed about the sentiments rendered by the review.
Also just a quick note on quality.. This review correction changes barely anything, a busted USB I/O implementation isn't an excuse for a product in this price range to now supposedly not get an axed panther head. The error about potential best performance has been rectified. You're up for an uphill battle if you're implying anything else is somehow owed another shake.
Why not seeing as it's a subjective machination to begin with? You yourself now brickwall yourself when you say "unless it's way out of bounds". Do you perhaps have some compensation based formula where "out of bounds" is quantified in some manner to satisfy all in a similar fashion as an analyzer satisfies all when IMD metrics are produced? You can say it's not to your preference that he reviews something with what you're perceiving as an issue. But it can be argued it's far to arduous and perhaps not enough of a concern, coming up with yet another system where pricing is now going to require compensations with other devices across the board.
Of course you can, this whole forum basically serves as the basis for the initiation of such comparisons.
We are talking TotalDac price ratios if performance to price is directly compared with something like a DX3Pro for example. Again, you presuppose some sort of already existing "sane prices" standard of which no one has had compulsion to agree with. You need to standardize yourself on how such a concept like "standard sane prices" can be codified in the first place. Otherwise I can simply be a consumer who somewhat cares about audio quality and say: "$1,000 for a box to listen to some music that barely sounds any different than my iPad??" Then you're back in the same place I told you when I replied to the first portion of your post.
Also, you are attempting to impose on what ought be cared about here. Why does someone necessarily have to value "small undertakings" and a company "doing what the need to at a chance to survive, given their conditions". I can easily agree with you, but just as easily and validly have a point against such a stance. For example: "X company doesn't publish proper and good faith specifications, instead third parties have to invest in thousands of dollars of equipment to do it themselves". That alone could be enough reason to instantly discount any appeals to emotion for "take into consideration the little guy". Especially if the little guy has no redeeming qualities. We're not talking Okto DAC here, where they at least stand in position to take the performance crown once their Stereo SKU hits the market.. we're talking about a product who's every aspect (aside from perhaps the dual Toslink inputs) can be had elsewhere. From the build quality, to performance (look at my post of the devices I posted on the first page of one such device).
You're not going to appropriate what I ought value, at least not with pre-suppositionalistic approaches.
And you know how such conclusions were "unreflected" exactly?
MSRP, or live pricing on a non-sale item at the current day, is objective data. Or if it's a discontinued item, a date of release and MSRP of release date, IS OBJECTIVE data, as it is objectively true that, that was the case at that time period.
The panther rating isn't a price to performance ratio. It's about as subjective and valid/invalid as someones opinion of a meal they ate. Not to be taken as gospel, nor does anyone do as such.
Finally, what train are "stupid copycats" even jumping on. Better yet, who are these copycats you're even talking about? That whole last sentence alludes to something far removed from the topics presented in the rest of your post. TOTALLY devoid of any context..
My point is that these measurements
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...phone-amplifier-audio-measurements-png.41029/
where any experienced eye sees 16-bit signal mode with dither should have been already deleted. Not only commented. This is just a measuring method error, regardless its probable origin in driver configuration.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...phone-amplifier-audio-measurements-png.41029/
where any experienced eye sees 16-bit signal mode with dither should have been already deleted. Not only commented. This is just a measuring method error, regardless its probable origin in driver configuration.
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I will buy expensive gear if it offers excellent performance and build quality, no matter the country of origin. There are usually certain unique features that can't be had elsewhere, or not in the same combination. Another consideration is customer service and support, and the company's ability to fulfills guarantees or act when something goes wrong.
Yes but it has thrown a bad light onto the product and later explanation is unable to fix it. Known in many cases, damaged reputation is difficult to recover or repair.
Dither is absolutely correct and a MUST for 16 bit data!! Otherwise you get signal frequency and level dependent quantization distortion.
1kHz data dithered
1kHz data not dithered
Yap. I also tend to think that this may be an indication that the goal of publishing one review a day may be over-reaching for ASR. It increases the chance that mishaps like this occur, and it also makes the comments/user contributions to the site extremely focused on tiny measurement details, in stead of the big picture when it comes to audio. Two weekly reviews of devices which are particularly interesting would probably be better for the site overall, I think. My 5 cents.
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