Hegel HD12 DSD DAC And Headphone Amp Review

[amirm]

Same can be said about using ASIO4ALL.

We have significant mileage on ASIO4ALL and comparisons I have performed using WASAPI. Out of 200+ DACs, I have probably tested 190 of them this way. And ASIO4ALL is used extensively by many users. Not so with JRiver ASIO emulation.

 

[gvl]

We have significant mileage on ASIO4ALL and comparisons I have performed using WASAPI. Out of 200+ DACs, I have probably tested 190 of them this way. And ASIO4ALL is used extensively by many users. Not so with JRiver ASIO emulation.

Let's start a petition to AP

 

[amirm]

That's the real solution. Contact them and say you wanted to buy 20 APx555 analyzers but as soon as you found out it only supports ASIO, you changed your mind.

 

[Hegel Music System]

Only thing I'm hopeful in the future is more detailed specifications of your products, or perhaps yourselves submitting it to amir for review/testing at the very least.

That is something we should look into as well. It is a debate as some measurements lack an universal standard for comparison. You have to go to graphic presentation. A constant debate here.

 

[Hegel Music System]

Thank you for posting.

Can you please describe how you come to the -145dB noise floor spec?
https://www.hegel.com/products/discontinued/hd12

recall the measurement signal but I do remember us looking at the results used for the catalogue. It was measured on an AP 2722

 

[VintageFlanker]

That is something we should look into as well. It is a debate as some measurements lack an universal standard for comparison. You have to go to graphic presentation. A constant debate here.

I see so many of your products that would deserve to be measured here...
Also, glad to see another manufacturer registered on ASR. Welcome aboard!

 

[pozz]

That is something we should look into as well. It is a debate as some measurements lack an universal standard for comparison. You have to go to graphic presentation. A constant debate here.

This is absolutely true. Which is why the debates here are about defining measurement conditions, test protocols and so on. Potential customers are interested in getting a fuller picture of what kind of testing a given unit received as part of the design process before being marketed.

 

[Tks]

That is something we should look into as well. It is a debate as some measurements lack an universal standard for comparison. You have to go to graphic presentation. A constant debate here.

100% agree, and is something I was shocked to come to the realization to when I got into audio, that there are so few standards and no big entity to codify any standard essentially.

Graphs would be perfectly adequate in absence of a consortium to create standards and such. Schiit Audio was a company who recently started providing such measurements for their devices, and a simply PDF link to the tests with graphs from an AP555 can be found on the product pages of their site. And is stated as such.

When people are presented with a few test for power output, distortion metrics of single-ended and balanced with precisely stated ohm dummy loads, power metrics at various loads, tone frequency used, other basics like crosstalk and such. That’s a far more satisfying situation than something like:

SNR: Better than 96db
Power: 600W
Case material: Metal
Color: Black

Any more information someone provides about their product (so as long as it’s not fallacious of course) is a good thing. It fosters good faith at the very least, and valuable information to someone at the very best (both manufacturer who now know more how their product performs, and an informed customer who can now make a better decision).

EDIT: I wanted to add, there are instances where providing such information can be detrimental. For instance if you brush up against users who are ardent science deniers. Where they doubt objective demonstrations as matters of fact. Who are never partial to being proven incorrect, and also who attest to be capable of feats we've determined to be beyond the realm of human possibility, and who also they themselves fail at demonstrating such ability when we put away measurement devices, and simply ask them to show us their ability under proper test settings (like folks claiming they can hear distortions -300db down, or people who claim to hear differences between all cables - but when asked for demonstration in controlled tests, they never fail to conjure an excuse like "The pressure impeded upon my performance", of course that such pressure conveniently never manifests itself as an excuse when the tests between products are sighted tests). To those people, measurements of nearly any kind come to them as an affront to basically who they are and they find scientific deduction a delusion (as if to indicate any progress in life could have been down otherwise). Thankfully these people never show themselves fully in the light, and are usually remnants in corners of comments sections for the most part.

So if that is your target demographic you want to appeal to - then I suppose measurements would be a waste of time. (But I sometimes ask those kinds of consumers to not look at power metrics on spec sheets for example, and simply lick their fingers and then touch the power lines to determine and 'feel' how much power an amp is capable of - since measurements from "machines" aren't something they find valid). Of course they laugh, in the same way I do to their oblivious nature that I am simply following their logic to it's end-game.

In reality, even subjective review outlets wouldn't have issues with more specification information from company sheets. As their subjective review will be subjective regardless. The only thing you have to gain is potentially newer customers who don't subscribe to some archaic mode of thinking as audio for a very large portion seems to STILL be afflicted by, but thankfully seemingly shifting toward better days.

 

[Matias]

@Hegel Music System as you can see there are almost daily measurements on this website, all using the same methodology, so after a while they become comparable between themselves. Would be really great if you could coordinate with your US distributor to supply some DACs and amps for Amir to measure, like HD30, H390 and H30 would be my choices.

 

[pozz]

I wanted to add, there are instances where providing such information can be detrimental. For instance if you brush up against users who ... doubt objective demonstrations as matters of fact.

Actually yeah—I have a side thought related to what you're saying: manufacturers can use their influence to engage their demographic. RME and Harbeth have done this on their forums. Show which measurements are important and why, which gear is important and which isn't. It would make sense since measurement/testing is a standard part of the design process.

 

[ENG]

That is something we should look into as well. It is a debate as some measurements lack an universal standard for comparison. You have to go to graphic presentation. A constant debate here

Hello Anders from Hegel. I have Hegel products (H190, H390 and HD25). It could be fine if you could send your newer product til Amir for measurement. We all deserve that.

 

[Matias]

Hello Anders from Hegel. I have Hegel products (H190, H390 and HD25). It could be fine if you could send your newer product til Amir for measurement. We all deserve that.

Please do!

 

[Oldbigears]

Hi - new to this site. Interesting to read the report of the HD12, with the mediocre lab test results recorded. A few years ago I picked up a Hegel HD25 at a great price, and have been pleased with it. Back then, audio media test results for the HD25 were consistently excellent. This particular one included apparently excellent lab results: http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/hegel_hd25_1.shtml

The key difference between the HD12 and 25 was claimed to be the superior analog / power supply side of the HD25. At least, that was my take-away.

Being generally uninterested in electronics, I have no idea how the AV Mentor test results (for the HD25) compare with the performance you measured with the HD12. What I can say it that coax input (via a Schiit Eitr) radically improved subjective performance vs USB on my DAC. FWIW I've also upgraded the fuse to SR Orange and , yes, I can hear a difference. (Untested, of course

I would appreciate your views as to whether the HD25 test results mean that its real world sound quality would compare well with your current favorites, like the Matrix and Topping D90?

My other equipment includes Belles Aria integrated and Kudos Super 20 towers. They are highly resolving.

 

[Oldbigears]

@franspambot thank you for your reply and information. Top line - I'm pleased to hear that my HD25 is (probably) in the upper 75% of DAC's - which apparently all sound the same to the human ear. I've therefore got a perfect DAC from a sound quality point of view - all I'm missing are features and additional functionality I don't really want - like a headphone outlet or DSD capability. It's good to know that at the end of the day, all we need to consider is the SINAD level and we're golden if it's over 110 dB. Easy enough to remember.

I did read the thread and noticed that Amir corrected his original test findings. That's why I mentioned my experience with coax sounding much better than USB on my DAC. Also, I will go ahead and sell my SR Orange fuse, however much better it appears to sound. If this just an audio illusion based on my hopes and expectations, I look forward to saving the money with no deterioration in measurements. Thank you!

Obviously it would be wonderful if someone on this site could check and confirm the AV Mentor lab test review of the HD25 done in 2015. Here's the link again...http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/hegel_hd25_1.shtml

The measurements fly right over my head but it seems the reviewer was quite impressed. This reviewer could have been a knucklehead and in any case that was back in 2015. Things have probably changed.

 

[Thunder240]

Hi everyone, long time lurker, just recently started posting. I bought an HD12 used for ~700 back in 2016, and it’s served me well. No QC issues

Here is a question I wanted to throw out. On top of the lack of a suitable driver for the AP, could the [possible] presence of an impedance matching circuit on the HD12’s coax input contribute to @amirm ’s superior measurements on coax vs USB?

I refer you to mainstream press reviews of the previous generation Hegel HD11 (for example http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/hegel-hd-11-digital-to-analogue-converter-hi-fi/) where such a circuit is cited as a reason why the coax input should be used if possible. I could not find any mention of an impedance matching circuit on the HD12 in either reviews or on Hegel’s website, although my user manual indicates that coax provides the best quality input (no reason given), which hints that this circuit may still be present.

Finally, regarding the flimsy remote, Hegel does sell an upgraded remote made out of anodized aluminum called the RC8, which adds a touch of class. (Wish it were included though!)
https://www.hegel.com/products/xtras

 

[ENG]

A few years later Hegel made these DACs: HD20 and HD25. I'm not that technical, but avmentor.net have some measurements I will ask more knowing members to explain. Is the HD25 a better DAC than Hegel HD12 ?

Here is the url: http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/hegel_hd25_2.shtml

 

[JohnYang1997]

A few years later Hegel made these DACs: HD20 and HD25. I'm not that technical, but avmentor.net have some measurements I will ask more knowing members to explain. Is the HD25 a better DAC than Hegel HD12 ?

Here is the url: http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/hegel_hd25_2.shtml

A bit better.

 

[Thunder240]

A few years later Hegel made these DACs: HD20 and HD25. I'm not that technical, but avmentor.net have some measurements I will ask more knowing members to explain. Is the HD25 a better DAC than Hegel HD12 ?

Here is the url: http://www.avmentor.net/reviews/2014/hegel_hd25_2.shtml

Hey, thanks for the link. Hegel certainly marketed (and priced) the HD25 as the better DAC. That said, there is a thread on head-fi where a user describes an A/B listening session at a hifi dealer. All present at the session (several people including the head-fi user as well as the salesperson) agreed they could not distinguish between the HD12 and the HD25. I don't recall whether the test was blind or not. I believe the HD25 may have some features that the HD12 doesn't, and given the price, I really hope Hegel included the RC8 metal remote instead of the plastic PoS that came with the HD12.

 

[ENG]

A bit better.

What about SINAD and dynamic range, how much better ?

 

[JohnYang1997]

What about SINAD and dynamic range, how much better ?

A bit better overall and each aspect it seems.