HEDD Type 20 MK2 Monitor Review

[tktran303]

@LTig

I think experienced loudspeaker designers, system integrators or live sound guys may able to gauge SPL 125, 115, 102dB etc, but in all honesty, I think it's hard for consumers.

The Meyer Sound Amie speaker was recently measured. This is a 6.5" two speaker speaker with a 1" dome tweeter in a waveguide, in a cabinet of 1/2 cu ft.

It measures pretty well:

amirm said:
"While I didn't capture it, even at 103 dBSPL, the sweep sounded very clean with no sign of strain or distortion."

Now 103dB is pretty good. And I trust Amir when he says something like this.

Since H2 and H3 are musically related (an octave, and an octave + perfect fifth respectively) so they are not discerned as "distortion" in the sense of linguistics or signals and systems engineering. Moreover, THD is not well correlated with perceptual preferences.

IME you really need large amounts non-linear distortion to "sound distorted" or to sound "Ah, that's too LOUD, turn that down!" That's the typical sound of distortion. How large? I’m talking 10% or more (-20dB) but this is frequency and level dependant. It has been the subject of much debate and research.

On the other hand, higher order distortion is more readily apparent. By higher order, I mean H5, H6, H7, H8, H9 etc..., and their thresholds for audibility are much higher. eg. audible even at 50dB.
Often these sounds manifest as "vibrating", "whistling", "buzzing" and other unpleasant noises.

OTOH, Meyer sound say:
"Linear Peak SPL3 120.5 dB with 18.5 dB crest factor (M-noise), 117.5 dB (Pink noise), 120 dB (B-noise)"

Appendix:
Linear Peak SPL is measured in free-field at 4 m referred to 1 m. Loudspeaker SPL compression measured with M-noise at the onset of limiting, 2-hour duration, and 50 °C ambient temperature is <2 dB. M-noise is a full bandwidth, (10Hz–22.5kHz) test signal developed by Meyer Sound to better measure the loudspeaker’s music performance. It has a constant instantaneous peak level in octave bands, a crest factor that increases with frequency, and a full bandwidth Peak to RMS ratio of 18 dB. Pinknoise is a full bandwidth test signal with Peak to RMS ratio of 12.5 dB. B-noise is a Meyer Sound test signal used to ensure measurements reflect system behavior when reproducing the most common input spectrum, and to verify there is still headroom over pink noise.

Reference:
https://meyersound.com/download/amie-datasheet/?wpdmdl=2168&masterkey=58b9e6bea5ed3"


But what is the practical or real world use of Meyer's statement? What is the consumer to make of that, vs 103dB.
120dB vs 103dB is a LARGE difference in acoustic power... I would love to hear what @amirm thinks of these manufacturer ratings, and whether his Klippel NFS can verify these manufacturer claims.


"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice - in practice there is" (Yogi Berra)

 

[Ogremic]

Real 126 dB sustained is in PA territory. I would not want to mix on that unless I'm deaf already. But it's true that if the mid/tweeter can't keep up with the woofers, it's a pity, because I heard the Type 20 and I liked the sound at low to mid-high levels

 

[LTig]

@tktran303 :
PA speakers do have a much higher sensitivity than studio or hifi speakers, but still physics rules: the higher the sensitivity the higher the lower cutoff frequency (meaning less bass) for a given woofer size. That's why we see PA speakers with 15" woofers which still have a cutoff at 50 Hz, and a 6.5" chassis is a mid range. The Meyer Sound Amie is impressive but it cannot play significantly (if at all) louder than the similar sized Neumann KH150.

 

[617]

Daily reminder that thd is not a perceptual metric, which explains why it is an unreliable way of assessing how clean and loud a speaker sounds.

 

[dfuller]

he Meyer Sound Amie is impressive but it cannot play significantly (if at all) louder than the similar sized Neumann KH150.

This is untrue, especially in the low end. The 150 is hard limited by its woofer - 3% and 10% distortion marks are pretty much on top of one another in S&R's review.

Compared to the Amie...

Daily reminder that thd is not a perceptual metric, which explains why it is an unreliable way of assessing how clean and loud a speaker sounds.

Yes, especially since speakers are biased heavily towards lower order (read: easily masked) HD. Multitone is going to be more of an issue.

 

[ernestcarl]

This is untrue, especially in the low end. The 150 is hard limited by its woofer - 3% and 10% distortion marks are pretty much on top of one another in S&R's review.

Compared to the Amie...

Yes, especially since speakers are biased heavily towards lower order (read: easily masked) HD. Multitone is going to be more of an issue.

If you look at their webinar for the Amie, they designed the speaker so that it could be run full-range with the sub only crossing over in the low bass (not the usual 80Hz). Which is really quite impressive.

 

[LTig]

This is untrue, especially in the low end.

The 3% curves for both speakers are very similar. The 10% curve of the Amie is not 12 dB louder (what I meant with significantly) but rather 2-3 dB, rising to about 5 dB below 90 Hz. So yes, regarding the low bass I stand corrected.

The 150 is hard limited by its woofer - 3% and 10% distortion marks are pretty much on top of one another in S&R's review.

AFAIK a speaker is limited by its amp, not its woofer, if the SPL for 3% and 10% is the same.

 

[ernestcarl]

AFAIK a speaker is limited by its amp, not its woofer, if the SPL for 3% and 10% is the same.

To a point…

How sure are you that the Neumann’s woofer driver has the same powerhandling capabilty as the Amie? Remember, the latter is a much older design as well.

 

[LTig]

To a point…

How sure are you that the Neumann’s woofer driver has the same powerhandling capabilty as the Amie?

I had looked at the 3% curves in those plots @dfuller had posted later. Only in the low bass the Amie is better, and in the 10% curve of course.

 

[Ilkless]

To a point…

How sure are you that the Neumann’s woofer driver has the same powerhandling capabilty as the Amie? Remember, the latter is a much older design as well.

Suddenly we are supposed to ignore the lumpy DI and midrange resonances because Amie has no limiter on it at extreme SPLs. Sounds like some very tenuois apologetics for a mediocre speaker.

 

[ernestcarl]

Suddenly we are supposed to ignore the lumpy DI and midrange resonances because Amie has no limiter on it at extreme SPLs. Sounds like some very tenuois apologetics for a mediocre speaker.

I kindly ask you not to put words into my mouth. The speaker has flaws, yes, which can be seen in the other plots. Some of it is rather explicit and even mentioned by some people who praised the monitors too. You act as though Meyer has been churning out new 6.5” models of this class every five years or so with little to no progress. The price is unfortunate, but there are a gazillion other speakers out there as well. And I’m far more interested in “broken” and outdated coaxial designs like Fulcrum Acoustic’s to be honest. Meyer Sound should be the least of your worries, seriously.

*Also, BTW, let me assist in finding you a new target to destroy: https://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/product/p-8-coaxial-loudspeaker/

 

[UserNameRequired]

If you experience Generek 8341,
You can immediately see how noisy the HEDD speakers are.

And the knob noise is...
Occurs when using the HEDD subwoofer.
If you haven't used a subwoofer, it's normal that you can't hear it.

I heard that the noise is heard at a distance of 30cm.
Please try type 20 MK2 and talk.
Even from a distance of 1m, your ears will hurt very much.

Although the noise was severe in 05MK2, 07MK2,
It was corrected through DSP modification without telling the consumer.
However, 20MK2, 30MK2 still have very loud noise.

The experience of using MK1
I hope you don't believe MK2 will be the same.

I have to agree with this. Whilst the sub 08 to my ears doesnt add to any noise floor, the 20 mk2’s unplugged from any source, different plug sockets used, input at lowest volume and the volume control at its lowest, sat now, almost 1.5m away all three compononents have such a loud noise floor, its insane. Firmware upadate stated it will significantly reduce the noise floor. For me, its done nothing. Gave the serial numbers to support and was basically told, thats as good as its gonna get. Also had a faulty mk1 only to have them replaced with the mk2’s with insane noise floor levels. Shoudve taken the advice and gone with the tried and trusted kh310’s

 

[Mr Analog]

I had an older pair of Mk 2’s to demo and the hiss did seem a little louder than some other monitors with class D amps. In a silent, sound treated room I could notice it at around 12” away while I needed to be within about 6” of my Barefoot footprints to hear any hiss.

I updated the firmware and the idle noise was a little lower but it wasn’t a night and day difference. Overall, I didn’t think the hiss was a big deal. I’ve definitely heard worse, and I’m pretty sensitive to it.

The main thing I noticed is how stunningly good these monitors sound. They easily beat out my Barefoot FP02’s in terms of detail, imaging and clarity, and the soundstage is on a completely different level. It felt like a significant step up so I ordered a pair.

The first pair I received were an interesting experience. They sounded exactly like the demo pair but the left and right speakers were clearly from different hardware revisions. The serial numbers were about 500 apart and the older one had an older firmware version installed. The latest version was released around 7 months ago so it must have been at least that old. Here’s the interesting thing: the newer speaker was virtually silent. It was significantly quieter than the older one even after updating its firmware.

I wasn’t happy with a mismatched pair of speakers and I wasn’t sure which one was “correct” so I returned them and asked for a pair from the latest batch with close serial numbers. I received that pair today and guess what? They are virtually silent. Hedd has clearly addressed the noise issue at a hardware level and the Type 20’s are now among the quietest class D powered monitors I’ve heard.

Whatever they tweaked hasn’t affected the sound quality in any noticeable way. If anything, they sound slightly more pleasing than the demo pair but with just as much detail and clarity. Anyway, it’s great that Hedd made these speakers even better by virtually eliminating the self noise. I never thought the amount of hiss was a problem but it was clearly too much for some people.

 

[KoreaBoy]

I had an older pair of Mk 2’s to demo and the hiss did seem a little louder than some other monitors with class D amps. In a silent, sound treated room I could notice it at around 12” away while I needed to be within about 6” of my Barefoot footprints to hear any hiss.

I updated the firmware and the idle noise was a little lower but it wasn’t a night and day difference. Overall, I didn’t think the hiss was a big deal. I’ve definitely heard worse, and I’m pretty sensitive to it.

The main thing I noticed is how stunningly good these monitors sound. They easily beat out my Barefoot FP02’s in terms of detail, imaging and clarity, and the soundstage is on a completely different level. It felt like a significant step up so I ordered a pair.

The first pair I received were an interesting experience. They sounded exactly like the demo pair but the left and right speakers were clearly from different hardware revisions. The serial numbers were about 500 apart and the older one had an older firmware version installed. The latest version was released around 7 months ago so it must have been at least that old. Here’s the interesting thing: the newer speaker was virtually silent. It was significantly quieter than the older one even after updating its firmware.

I wasn’t happy with a mismatched pair of speakers and I wasn’t sure which one was “correct” so I returned them and asked for a pair from the latest batch with close serial numbers. I received that pair today and guess what? They are virtually silent. Hedd has clearly addressed the noise issue at a hardware level and the Type 20’s are now among the quietest class D powered monitors I’ve heard.

Whatever they tweaked hasn’t affected the sound quality in any noticeable way. If anything, they sound slightly more pleasing than the demo pair but with just as much detail and clarity. Anyway, it’s great that Hedd made these speakers even better by virtually eliminating the self noise. I never thought the amount of hiss was a problem but it was clearly too much for some people.

I'm glad you liked the product.

It is recommended not to purchase products from brands that need to be tested.
This is my idea and it doesn't change.

Many defects have been found in the products already sold,
It is no longer a preferred brand speaker in Korea.

Many users in Korea have been stressed by the defects and are being sold secondhand.

I still think of this brand as trash.

 

[Mr Analog]

I'm glad you liked the product.

It is recommended not to purchase products from brands that need to be tested.
This is my idea and it doesn't change.

Many defects have been found in the products already sold,
It is no longer a preferred brand speaker in Korea.

Many users in Korea have been stressed by the defects and are being sold secondhand.

I still think of this brand as trash.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. Even the beat up demo pair I received, which were haphazardly packed in one big box with some bubble wrap thrown in, worked perfectly and sounded just as good as a brand new pair.

I‘m not sure what axe you’re trying to grind here but repeating the same nonsensical claims over and over isn’t adding any value to this thread. Whatever issues you had seem to have only happened to you.

The build quality feels premium and on par with other high end speakers, but I’ll certainly report back if any issues come up.

 

[KoreaBoy]

I have no idea what you’re talking about. Even the beat up demo pair I received, which were haphazardly packed in one big box with some bubble wrap thrown in, worked perfectly and sounded just as good as a brand new pair.

I‘m not sure what axe you’re trying to grind here but repeating the same nonsensical claims over and over isn’t adding any value to this thread. Whatever issues you had seem to have only happened to you.

The build quality feels premium and on par with other high end speakers, but I’ll certainly report back if any issues come up.

I hope you think it's a good speaker and use it well.
I have no intention of using HEDD trash.

You'll have a defect soon, so please don't change your words then.

 

[Mr Analog]

I hope you think it's a good speaker and use it well.
I have no intention of using HEDD trash.

You'll have a defect soon, so please don't change your words then.

Haha, I guess we’ll see. I’ll report back either way.

 

[Ogremic]

I use a pair of Type7 mk1 for more than 5 years. The only thing trashy is the fancy paint they tried on mk1 which turns to a dust magnet. The sound quality though is still exceptional and I work on them every day. When I will have the tine and disposition, I may have to open them up, take out the electronics and sand/paint them. But other than looks, what they do is very much to my liking

 

[Mr Analog]

Yeah, I’m not sure what they were thinking with the rubberized finish on the Mk1’s. That stuff tends to degrade over time, and it’s not easy to keep clean even if it holds up

A custom refinish would be awesome, and maybe not too difficult depending on how hard it is to peel and scrape off the original coating. Please do it and post pics!

 

[Ogremic]

Yep, it's become a thing that can't be cleaned completely with a cloth because it sticks to the surface. It's not completely unusable but not beautiful as it was when I bought them.