• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Headphones under 500 euros (again) amplification question, etc (sundara is my no 1. choice right now)

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
Hi there guys and merry christmas.
I know that some time ago i made a thread for a closed headphone. Well since my old headphones havent been sold yet (ath m50x) i dont think i will invest in akf k371 as i was thinking. I am now thinking to keep the m50x (probably get new pair of earpads) and buy another pair of headphones.

This time i will go for open headphones. ill keep my m50x for my electronic drums, and the new set will be used for music listening. Most money i am willing to spend is 500 euros if i can find the set in Greece, otherwise ill make it 400 euros tops (shipped from europe, no drop or usa markets cause customs will kill me).

About my setup.
I will be listening with my Soncoz La-qhd1 dac. For amplification i have 2 options. when i am sitting near my pc, the amplification will be an Art Headamp 4 Pro.
https://www.thomann.de/gr/art_headamp_4_pro.htm

When i am sitting on the couch, i will simply plug the headphones to my Sansui's AU 717 headphone port.

First question is this. will these amplifications work for headphones like the Hifiman Sundara (that i am really considering right now)? Will they drive them correctly?
If not, everything changes. Id rather spend money on a different headphone pair and keep my current amplification options.

Also considering Sennheiser hd660s. I think i am almost sold for sundara though. I only have 2 reservations for them. Will i be able to drive them adequatelly with my setup? And also, will i have problems with the clamping force? i may be listening for long sessions, id like to not get annoyed by that.

Id like to spend my money on headphones that do not sound like cans. I want to feel like as if i am listening from my floorstanding speakers. Therefore soundstage and separation is vital to me. Id rather avoid like the plague, beyerdynamic like, trebles. and if i am paying 400 euros, id like to feel amazed by the music. My music is of high quality flacs and vinyl. i always take notice and get the best pressings etc. So if headphones, make bad sources sound bad, i dont have a problem with that.

Any other contenders?
I really hope you can help me guys, by telling me if my amplifications is adequate. otherwise ill need suggestions for my price range for great headphones that can be driven by what i have. thank you
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,760
Likes
9,442
Location
Europe
[..] This time i will go for open headphones. ill keep my m50x for my electronic drums, and the new set will be used for music listening. Most money i am willing to spend is 500 euros if i can find the set in Greece, otherwise ill make it 400 euros tops (shipped from europe, no drop or usa markets cause customs will kill me).
[..]
For amplification i have 2 options. when i am sitting near my pc, the amplification will be an Art Headamp 4 Pro.
https://www.thomann.de/gr/art_headamp_4_pro.htm
[..]When i am sitting on the couch, i will simply plug the headphones to my Sansui's AU 717 headphone port.

First question is this. will these amplifications work for headphones like the Hifiman Sundara (that i am really considering right now)? Will they drive them correctly? [..] Also considering Sennheiser hd660s. I think i am almost sold for sundara though. I only have 2 reservations for them. Will i be able to drive them adequatelly with my setup?
Looking at the specs of the ART Headamp 4 Pro in the owners manual the output impedance (47 Ohms) is much too high to feed low impedance headphones like the Sundara (37 Ohm), but the output voltage of +15 dBu should be sufficient for the HD660 (63 mW at 300 Ohm). I know that @amirm wants to see 100 mW but I disagree here - you should not be able to destroy your hearing sense.

I could not find specs of the AU 717 but due to its age I expect that its headphone output is just connected to the power amp output by means of a voltage divider which usually implies an output impedance too high for the Sundara.
And also, will i have problems with the clamping force? i may be listening for long sessions, id like to not get annoyed by that.
No. The Senns usually have a low clamping force and are very light in weight so you can wear them for a long time
Id like to spend my money on headphones that do not sound like cans. I want to feel like as if i am listening from my floorstanding speakers. Therefore soundstage and separation is vital to me. Id rather avoid like the plague, beyerdynamic like, trebles. and if i am paying 400 euros, id like to feel amazed by the music. My music is of high quality flacs and vinyl. i always take notice and get the best pressings etc. So if headphones, make bad sources sound bad, i dont have a problem with that.
Most of your requirements are fulfilled by the Sennheiser HD800s except its brightness and price. I'd say the HD660 is the best compromise.
 
OP
P

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
Looking at the specs of the ART Headamp 4 Pro in the owners manual the output impedance (47 Ohms) is much too high to feed low impedance headphones like the Sundara (37 Ohm), but the output voltage of +15 dBu should be sufficient for the HD660 (63 mW at 300 Ohm). I know that @amirm wants to see 100 mW but I disagree here - you should not be able to destroy your hearing sense.

I could not find specs of the AU 717 but due to its age I expect that its headphone output is just connected to the power amp output by means of a voltage divider which usually implies an output impedance too high for the Sundara.

No. The Senns usually have a low clamping force and are very light in weight so you can wear them for a long time

Most of your requirements are fulfilled by the Sennheiser HD800s except its brightness and price. I'd say the HD660 is the best compromise.

I cant thank you enough my friend for this analytical post.
I think it is obvious, i am really sad concerning my headphone amplification equipment
By the way, i uploaded my sansui au 717 schematics, perhaps someone can quickly check if it could manage save the day...
https://mega.nz/file/zVNxDCwS#Omi3Xq9poJb0qQoUP2RRvfMS1ok6OHvUA6rUi91N0k4
https://mega.nz/file/CBEHhAKT#EwwakVkOKXjVi94uPHA-A9K2T7pWjwrwpS3DQViBgK4

i really hoped my headphone amp was adequate, because, the way i see it, planar headphones could be my think. controlled bass that is not boomy etc, but it is as it is supposed to be, no more or less, and great soundchange, for what i read, can be greatly achieved with plannars. But planars require much current. so there is that.

I have to keep an open mind, so i have to ask, is there some cheap headphone amp that could do well with planars like the sundara?
if i have to get an amp that costs 200 euros, then it is a no go. 2-3 suggestions could really help, i could do my own research for them.

But of course i can go for hd660s. What puzzled me a bit is if hd660s is really much better than hd600, hd6xx and all these sennheisers that are half the price of the hd660s... is the much higher 660s price justified?

any other contenters?
Thank you so much. i know i am puzzled. But i do appreciate the help. such posts make my mind get unstuck and think better. cheers
 
OP
P

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
ok after my afternoon nap and thoughts, to hell with the extra amp. ill use what i have, hd660s it is, if my art headamp can drive it (hopefully my sansui amp can as well, right?).
If no other suggestions to check, ill order em as soon as possible. thank you
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,760
Likes
9,442
Location
Europe
By the way, i uploaded my sansui au 717 schematics, perhaps someone can quickly check if it could manage save the day...
The headphone output impedance of the AUTO 717 is 220 Ohm.

Now, the problem with high output impedance is that the frequency response (FR) of the headphone depends on its own impedance. If this is not constant FR is not flat. Usually the impedance peaks at the resonance of the driver so FR peaks here as well (since this is in the bass people may prefer it). It is possible though that the impedance of the Sundara is close to constant, maybe someone else (@solderdude ?) has data available.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
Sundara on 0.2 Ohm and via 120 Ohm:

120-r.png



Below the HD660S on 0.2 Ohm and 120 Ohm:
hd660s-120-ohm.png


Sundara on Art = 45 Ohm out = 1.9V = 113dB peak
Sundara on 717 = 220 Ohm out = 4V = 120dB peak

HD660S on Art = 3.3V out = 114dB peak with +1.1dB midbass boost
HD660S on 717 = 11V out = 124dB peak with +3.5dB midbass boost

115dB peak SPL is enough for very loud listening levels( about 100dB SPL average)
 
Last edited:
OP
P

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
@solderdude and @LTig thank you so much for the responses. Unfortunately i dont get the physics behind all that.
I understand that the impedance of the headphone in conjuction with the characteristics of the headpgone amp, may alter the frequency responce with altered and unwanted fr peaks in certain frequencies.
So, from solderdudes graphics he kindly shared, am i safe to assume that despite my previous assumption, sundara can be driven without any fr alterations from both my art and sansui amps, but hd660s will have some unwanted peaks especially with the 717?
If i am wrong, and i do need to get a headphone amp, ill need to reevaluate everything.
Just when my mind shifted and i decided to go for hd660s... But it is better of course, to be certain that the setup will work before hand, than spend lots of money to realise that somethings wrong later on. Thank you
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
So, from solderdudes graphics he kindly shared, am i safe to assume that despite my previous assumption, sundara can be driven without any fr alterations from both my art and sansui amps, but hd660s will have some unwanted peaks especially with the 717?

correct.
 
OP
P

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
thank you so much my friend. so with current amplifications i should get sundara. if i get a new amp i can get hd660s.
It is funny, 2 months ago i was sold to just get the akg k371. and as times goes by, my spending budget ups itself.

Now i cant stop thinking if i should get a better headphone amp. that would work with any of these 2 headphones.
A first i am thinking a headphone amp like Atom amp or L30 that i read great reviews.
For jds atom amp. They way i have things set up, i would use the 3.5mm jack, to feed the amp with my behringers "console out" signal, and then plug in the headphones. seems the best solution to my current setup.
L30 doesnt heave a mini jack or 6.35 jack inout, so that would make things more challenging with my setup. Any other amp around that 1---120 dollars budget i should think of?

Another think i am thinking. as a drummer, if i decide to use in ear monitors at live gigging at some point, i may need a portable headphone amp to feed my iems. So, perhaps, i should get a headphone amp, that can work as both portable feeding from a power bank (or perhaps internal battery) but also as a desktop headphone amp feeding from a power supply. Is anything for that purpose, worth getting?

if i need to spend too much, then perhaps i should get the sundara and be done with it. but i was really thinking of getting perhaps the hd660s, thus started to think the head amp approach.

This is getting too hard to decide....
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
When your budget is small and you are looking for reference sound the K371 would be the best recommendation. Its closed though.
Would work fine on both sources.

The budget has gone up. Neutralish is good enough and comfort and longevity come in play. Open is now on the table. It opens up another can of worms.

portable and desktop... O2 works fine.

I would recommend to listen to all 3 headphones if possible before committing to one.
 
OP
P

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
When your budget is small and you are looking for reference sound the K371 would be the best recommendation. Its closed though.
Would work fine on both sources.

The budget has gone up. Neutralish is good enough and comfort and longevity come in play. Open is now on the table. It opens up another can of worms.

portable and desktop... O2 works fine.

I would recommend to listen to all 3 headphones if possible before committing to one.
you are absolutely right, that i have openned a can of worms. actually i opened too many cans of worms at the same time.

First can:
Replace my ath m50x and get a better headphone to also listen to music instead of only drum monitoring. (biggest contender, akg k371)

Second can:
Get an open headphone and keep the ath m50x for drumming

Third can: Hey if you get an open headphone, get a headphone that is way better than the akg k371 (otherwise what is the point of not getting the akg k371). This ups the budget to 400 euros. hd660s or sundara, the greatest contenders.

4th can: Hey you need a headphone amp even if the impedance of the headphones is low. (but i remembered i have a headphone amp). Oh wait it is not good enough it colorises the fr. spend 100 euros more

5th can: hey you are also a drummer, why not get a headphone amp that can be both portable and desktop, so that you probably can use it also on stage?

6th can. if you do get a portable amp and you do intent to use it on stage as well, will you drum with the headphones on you, to monitor? nooooo.
You could get iems instead. In ear monitors for both music and stage monitoring. But is the soundstage as good as with over ear headphones? are iems as good for music as for stage playing? are tey convenient for every day listening?

what should one man do?
i dont really know. as i said, too many cans of worms. I can only thank you for helping me open them, because its the only way to be sure to get what suits my purpose best.

to many things to decide upon. ill try to listen to some of these headphones and sleep over these ideas. ill definitely be back, like arnold, but i have firstly some things to consider first

Thank you solderguy and thank you all of you guys for helping out one way or the other
 

Noodles

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
307
Likes
241
Location
Netherlands
I had both the k361 and k371 for a few days. They are both excellent choices but out of the two the 361 is more neutral sound, 371 is quite bassy.
HD660s on the other hand uses the HD700 driver and what that results in is some harshness of the treble. Not allot but you can hear it from time to time and the mids are not that great either.
HD600 is a better choice overall in that price bracket.
Sundara has an ok clamp if you have a normal head - for wider heads like my own the clamp is waaaay to much. It is fixable if you bend the metal but ...yeah. When I talk big heads - most 150mm or smaller temple measure glasses are too small for me.
If I had to spend money on any of those 3 again ... It would be the k361. Possible defect on them is the hinges go wobbly... So pick your poison.
Beyer treble does not exist on the Beyer TYGR so there is that too :)
Yamaha HPH-MT8 is a good choice, another great one is any of the Mackies (yes they are awesome, not sure why ppl don't talk about them more).
If you want something built like a tank and also quite neutral - Austrian audio x55.

And again as people always say - buy from a place you can return without fuss.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
HD660s on the other hand uses the HD700 driver

They both use the same driver chassis, they are not the same drivers though. The harshness in the treble is a 5.5kHz peak which can be removed.

Acc. to Crinacle measurements the treble of the TYGR is even higher than that of the DT990 (same driver, different damping) around 6kHz where sibilance resides but less around 7kHz. Both are elevated in the treble.
crinacle.png
 

ZolaIII

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
4,069
Likes
2,409
See how the AKG K702 fits you and your needs both by measurements and if you can physically (try them). They can be found for 150€ where I live (Europe). Additionally see how Creative Sound BlasterX G6 fit's your needs, it has enough power to drive most 300 Ohm's can's and it's portable enough. Shouldn't be more than 150€ you probably can find it cheaper. Both should be available in EU and Europe.

Best regards.
 
OP
P

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
thank you all for your latest posts and suggestions. they will be considered thoroughly
 
OP
P

porotikos

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2019
Messages
163
Likes
59
just sold the m50x i had and got the akg 371 for edrum monitoring. i left them playing for 5 hours, will do that again tomorrow. so far, from songs i really know of, they sound way way better than m50x. better basswithout being bloated, no harsh trebles, beutiful mids. i wil keep them and while reviewing them i will think about my next move. i think that be evaluating i will understand better my needs. i will be back. happy new year to all
 

Noodles

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
307
Likes
241
Location
Netherlands
If you like the k371, your taste is probably closer to the Harman curve as those follow it quite tightly.

Happy new year!
 
Top Bottom