Headphones (<$500) with un-EQd frequency response closest to neutral speakers in a treated room?

[Phosphenetre]

Hey everyone! As the title describes, I'm looking for headphones that in their stock/un-EQd state, have a frequency response most like neutral studio monitors in a treated room. For reference, I'm a musician and audio engineer, so accurate nearfield studio monitors in a well treated room are my 'normal'.

Why no EQ? Because I'll often need to use these plugged directly into random things like keyboards or guitar amp simulation devices.

I know the subject of what makes headphones sound like speakers in a room is a complicated and unsettled one, but from what I know so far, the Harman curve target is a good candidate, perhaps the best we currently have.

Based on that, I've so far been looking closely at the Sennheiser HD560s and the AKG K371 (which I don't feel as confident in the build, fit and comfort of). I already have the Audio Technica R70x, which in its natural state does not do what I'm describing, although it does sound excellent with EQ calibration and room response simulation when I'm mixing. I need something to replace the R70x that does a significantly better job at sounding (frequency response-wise) like studio monitors in a control room.

How's the HD560s at this? Is there something else that outdoes it within the ~$500 range?

 

[markanini]

Beyerdynamic DT880. Since you mention AKG K371 it's a better all rounder but not a stand out is this context.

 

[fpitas]

AKG K601 isn't bad. I use them as a reference tuning speakers. The Senn HD600 or HD650 might be another good choice.

 

[staticV3]

I'm looking for headphones that in their stock/un-EQd state, have a frequency response most like neutral studio monitors in a treated room.

Headphones have to deviate in the bass from neutral monitors in a treated room to compensate for the lack of tactility that speakers provide:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595478880810258433

 

[staticV3]

Beyerdynamic DT880

meh

 

[fpitas]

Headphones have to deviate in the bass from neutral monitors in a treated room to compensate for the lack of tactility that speakers provide:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595478880810258433

True enough, although everybody seems to want a different amount of bass.

 

[markanini]

View attachment 260423
meh

Look closer, no slope and a score of 88. Literally higher than the AKG K371(85) and Byer DT700X(77) you recommended the other day.

 

[Zensō]

Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Dan Clark Expanse open-back planar magnetic headphone. It was loaned to me by the company and costs US $3999. The design takes that of Stealth headphone to another level with nicely done grill on the outside. It is very comfortable to...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Dan Clark Stealth Review (State of the Art Headphone)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the just announced Dan Clark Audio Stealth closed back planar magnetic headphone. Company was kind enough to share with me a couple of samples which I have been testing and playing with in the last couple of weeks. It costs US $3999. The price...

www.audiosciencereview.com

These are outside of your price range but they are the best examples of what you’re looking for.

 

[staticV3]

Look closer, no slope and a score of 88. Literally higher than the AKG K371(85) and Byer DT700X(77) you recommended the other day.

I don't care about the preference score. I care about the frequency response, which looks not good.

There are 14 preference points between these two HD600 units: Link
There is one preference point between the 800S and Stealth:


The whole preference score is a meme to me and I wish people would stop using it and focus on frequency response instead.

 

[Phosphenetre]

Headphones have to deviate in the bass from neutral monitors in a treated room to compensate for the lack of tactility that speakers provide:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595478880810258433

I understand that, and this is largely why I mentioned the Harman curve as a potential target I'm considering as a ballpark. As I understand it, headphones that conform to the Harman OE target should have a similar perceived frequency response and balance as neutral speakers in a treated room?

 

[Phosphenetre]

Dan Clark Expanse Headphone Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Dan Clark Expanse open-back planar magnetic headphone. It was loaned to me by the company and costs US $3999. The design takes that of Stealth headphone to another level with nicely done grill on the outside. It is very comfortable to...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Dan Clark Stealth Review (State of the Art Headphone)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the just announced Dan Clark Audio Stealth closed back planar magnetic headphone. Company was kind enough to share with me a couple of samples which I have been testing and playing with in the last couple of weeks. It costs US $3999. The price...

www.audiosciencereview.com

These are outside of your price range but they are the best examples of what you’re looking for.

Thanks, the Stealth looks bafflingly good. Way, way beyond anything I can afford in the foreseeable future, but great to know that something like this even exists.

 

[Zensō]

Thanks, the Stealth looks bafflingly good. Way, way beyond anything I can afford in the foreseeable future, but great to know that something like this even exists.

I’m hoping the technology used in those headphones eventually trickles down to their more affordable offerings.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Phosphenetre back to the question from post NO#6 which one are you?
From what's menagable from pricing standpoint and actually thinking you do need closed design and easy enough to drive from any source I think you should give a Denon AX-D5200 a consideration especially with costume pads.
On a good day's they can be found for about 360€/$ new.
A bit of rant and lot of measurements of those:

Denon AH-D5200 Discussion and Impressions

Denon AH-D5200 This thread is for discussion and impressions of the AH-D5200, a new-ish biodynamic driver headphone from Denon. It was released in...

www.superbestaudiofriends.org

Fit and confort are determined factors and individual (along with glasses and cetera) so make sure to try them or get them from the place where you can return them with minimal cost to you if you are not satisfied.
Best regards and have a nice time.

 

[staticV3]

I understand that, and this is largely why I mentioned the Harman curve as a potential target I'm considering as a ballpark. As I understand it, headphones that conform to the Harman OE target should have a similar perceived frequency response and balance as neutral speakers in a treated room?

It's still a preference target, but I think it sounds neutral.

It won't be easy to find passive headphones that comply with Harman OE.
To get Harman bass at reasonable cost, Closed is the only way.
But closed headphones are very sensitive to placement, fit, seal.
So even if the headphone matches Harman on a GRAS rig, there's no guarantee it'll do the same on your head.

Some closed headphones at ≤$500 that get close to Harman on GRAS:
-K371
-HI-X60
-DT 700 Pro X
-Aeon Closed X
-SRH440

Maybe @MayaTlab can comment if one of these behaves well on-head as well?

 

[Leiker535]

Beyerdynamic DT880. Since you mention AKG K371 it's a better all rounder but not a stand out is this context.

Too much treble and "clarity" for it to be considered neutral. Had one for more than ten years and always felt that the sennheisers (6x0s and 560s) were more neutral both objectively and subjectively.

The HD 560s might be the best option for you OP. They are high enough impedance for not to be bothered by dirty studio gear outputs, and yet are sensitive enough for them to play it loud. Stock they have a brightish signature and a bit of a subbass rolloff which are both fixable with EQ. If you want Harman levels of bass, they might bring in distortion at louder levels with the EQ shelf, but I don't think it would matter much.

Edit: with no EQ, you really have very limited options. I would then go with the Aeon Closed X that Static mentioned. However, bear in mind that they won't play to very loud levels with current lacking studio gear (old gear were prone to give more voltage than current). Add in a $100 amp like the atom or schiit heresy and you're golden.

 

[Phosphenetre]

@Phosphenetre back to the question from post NO#6 which one are you?
From what's menagable from pricing standpoint and actually thinking you do need closed design and easy enough to drive from any source I think you should give a Denon AX-D5200 a consideration especially with costume pads.
On a good day's they can be found for about 360€/$ new.
A bit of rant and lot of measurements of those:

Denon AH-D5200 Discussion and Impressions

Denon AH-D5200 This thread is for discussion and impressions of the AH-D5200, a new-ish biodynamic driver headphone from Denon. It was released in...

www.superbestaudiofriends.org

Fit and confort are determined factors and individual (along with glasses and cetera) so make sure to try them or get them from the place where you can return them with minimal cost to you if you are not satisfied.
Best regards and have a nice time.

With regards to the additional bass amount needed, I don't think I have enough hands-on experience with multiple tuning approaches to the low-end, so I'm inclined to pick the Harman target as the safest bet.

I'll look at the Denon pair you suggested, thanks!

 

[MayaTlab]

Hey everyone! As the title describes, I'm looking for headphones that in their stock/un-EQd state, have a frequency response most like neutral studio monitors in a treated room. For reference, I'm a musician and audio engineer, so accurate nearfield studio monitors in a well treated room are my 'normal'.

Why no EQ? Because I'll often need to use these plugged directly into random things like keyboards or guitar amp simulation devices.

I know the subject of what makes headphones sound like speakers in a room is a complicated and unsettled one, but from what I know so far, the Harman curve target is a good candidate, perhaps the best we currently have.

That's a good starting point indeed. Now the major issue you'll have, for a start, is how to actually deliver something in that spirit to your ears. The main issues I think are :
- sample variation (variance in headphones' FR depending on manufacturing quality, or pad wear).
- coupling issues (variance in headphones' FR depending on your own anatomy vs. the ear simulator that was used for the measurements, or headphones which FR changes significantly with positional variation).
Depending on the headphones either one or the other can be the predominant issue and some of them are plagued by both.

Based on that, I've so far been looking closely at the Sennheiser HD560s

Oratory1990 (https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/) commented positively on their sample variation and, being fully open dynamic headphones, they'll suffer less from coupling issues than some other headphones. That being said the one sample I owned was tilted a little brighter than Harman in the 100-4000 Hz range and didn't deliver quite as much bass as I'd have expected given the measurements. Besides, without EQ it doesn't follow the Harman target at lower frequencies, and perhaps not quite to the letter at higher frequencies as well.

and the AKG K371

You should try them, but these do suffer quite a bit from coupling issues. At lower frequencies Rtings measure headphones on several real human subject, and this is how the K371 compares to the HD560S.
Even just for me the FR shifted more than I'd like simply by moving my head.
There is no guarantee that they'll deliver something close to the Harman target once they're on your head, but perhaps you'll be lucky.

They may also suffer from sample variation, at least more so than the HD560S.

How's the HD560s at this? Is there something else that outdoes it within the ~$500 range?

For me yes, easily - particularly since the single pair of HD560S I've experienced so far are nowhere near that goal. But none of the ones I have in mind are of the sort I'd be confident to recommend to someone else with the guarantee that you'll share the same impression.

I understand that, and this is largely why I mentioned the Harman curve as a potential target I'm considering as a ballpark. As I understand it, headphones that conform to the Harman OE target should have a similar perceived frequency response and balance as neutral speakers in a treated room?

That seems grosso modo to be what most people think, but Harman's own research found some variation in preferences, and even well setup speakers systems may vary a bit - it's normal that the headphones that will sound the closest to your system and that you'll eventually prefer may not adhere perfectly well to the target when it's measured on ear simulators, but it probably shouldn't measure way off either.

Thanks, the Stealth looks bafflingly good. Way, way beyond anything I can afford in the foreseeable future, but great to know that something like this even exists.

It's also likely to suffer a lot from coupling issues, which makes it inappropriate for the intended goal.

 

[Phosphenetre]

It's still a preference target, but I think it sounds neutral.

It won't be easy to find passive headphones that comply with Harman OE.
To get Harman bass at reasonable cost, Closed is the only way.
But closed headphones are very sensitive to placement, fit, seal.
So even if the headphone matches Harman on a GRAS rig, there's no guarantee it'll do the same on your head.

Some closed headphones at ≤$500 that get close to Harman on GRAS:
-K371
-HI-X60
-DT 700 Pro X
-Aeon Closed X
-SRH440

Maybe @MayaTlab can comment if one of these behaves well on-head?

Too much treble and "clarity" for it to be considered neutral. Had one for more than ten years and always felt that the sennheisers (6x0s and 560s) were more neutral both objectively and subjectively.

The HD 560s might be the best option for you OP. They are high enough impedance for not to be bothered by dirty studio gear outputs, and yet are sensitive enough for them to play it loud. Stock they have a brightish signature and a bit of a subbass rolloff which are both fixable with EQ. If you want Harman levels of bass, they might bring in distortion at louder levels with the EQ shelf, but I don't think it would matter much.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm going to look into these now.

As for the challenges with meeting the bass end of the Harman curve, that would actually be one area I could compromise with a bit, since when I need to use these without EQ, it'll often be while playing electric guitar where low-end below about 85 Hz is not really a major priority.

 

[luft262]

AKG 371

 

[markanini]

I don't care about the preference score. I care about the frequency response, which looks not good.

There are 14 preference points between these two HD600 units: Link
There is one preference point between the 800S and Stealth:
View attachment 260426 View attachment 260425

The whole preference score is a meme to me and I wish people would stop using it and focus on frequency response instead.

You've revealed so far that you think "looks" is a robust metric, and a good replacement for in person listening. I'll leave this as my final response to your OT tangent about your reasoning abilities: A measurement of Beyer DT700 Pro X that you recommended the other day.