Headphone EQ Suggestions

[sejarzo]

I've attended about 5 or 6 Chicago Symphony Orchestra concerts since I got back into hifi after a fairly long hiatus. I never sat dead center, but fairly close to center, and halfway or so back on the main floor or in the first balcony. I've also attended many more college wind ensemble concerts in a variety of venues.

Every time I went, I closed my eyes and it didn't take long before I once again confirmed that most of the pinpoint localization of instruments that audiophiles cherish in either speaker or headphone rigs simply doesn't exist in what are considered great venues...at least for me. Pinpoint localization seems to be an artifact that makes up for the fact that we are not seeing the performance itself and contributes to a sensation of realism.

Also...our daughter is an honors student in one of the nation's top speech and hearing programs, and she's looked in hundreds of ear canals. She said there are significant differences in cross section, curvature, twists, etc. That's why I believe IEMs are far more of an individual taste thing versus over ears, and likely are why so many people find that published corrections still don't sound right.

 

[thewas]

Pinpoint localization seems to be an artifact that makes up for the fact that we are not seeing the performance itself and contributes to a sensation of realism.

Exactly, it is also written in the book of Toole, in most big music events like concert halls reflected sounds dominate so acoustical localisation doesn't really work.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I tend to believe that often the reason why a neutral signature doesn't sound right is because people train themselves to prefer a different sound signature. They like extra bass, or they like extra airy or cut mids or what not. I think if people were to allow time for the neutral sound sig to settle in (iow for their hearing system to adapt) they'd realize how great, accurate and dynamic it really is.

 

[thewas]

That is one reason, although we shouldn't also forget that a headphone tonality is perceived a bit differently depending on our anatomy, so the same headphone might sound to someone like a neutral source (i.e. loudspeaker) and to the other not, see the slides and video I posted here

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

That is one reason, although we shouldn't also forget that a headphone tonality is perceived a bit differently depending on our anatomy, so the same headphone might sound to someone like a neutral source (i.e. loudspeaker) and to the other not, see the slides and video I posted here

Haha. Well, I'm going to resist the temptation to link you to the post I made after you posted that a page ago.

 

[thewas]

Well that means you still didn't understand the difference of the sound coming from a real outside source like a loudspeaker and coming from a headphone, watching that video of Griesinger how different the tonality of a Sennheiser HD600 is heard compared to the same loudspeaker by different humans would help.

 

[SirMaster]

I've attended about 5 or 6 Chicago Symphony Orchestra concerts since I got back into hifi after a fairly long hiatus. I never sat dead center, but fairly close to center, and halfway or so back on the main floor or in the first balcony. I've also attended many more college wind ensemble concerts in a variety of venues.

Every time I went, I closed my eyes and it didn't take long before I once again confirmed that most of the pinpoint localization of instruments that audiophiles cherish in either speaker or headphone rigs simply doesn't exist in what are considered great venues...at least for me. Pinpoint localization seems to be an artifact that makes up for the fact that we are not seeing the performance itself and contributes to a sensation of realism.

But what if you were sitting where the conductor is?

Also where are the microphones placed in a recording? Surely not out in the audience, so should we even expect a recording to sound like sitting in the audience?

Is the audience even the best place to enjoy an orchestra from? Or is it just a necessary fact of life based on the limitations of fitting a bunch of people in front of an orchestra for a performance?

I guess what I mean to say is why limit ourselves to emulating a concert hall? Why can't we try to take the experience to a higher and more intimate level than otherwise possible in the real world?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Well that means you still didn't understand the difference of the sound coming from a real outside source like a loudspeaker and coming from a headphone, watching that video of Griesinger how different the tonality of a Sennheiser HD600 is heard compared to the same loudspeaker by different humans would help.

I'm at work and can't really focus too deeply on this right now, but let me see if I understand. So, we are comparing the pink noise tonality that ten individuals hear from the senns to the pink noise output of a loudspeaker. OK. But, are we comparing it to the pink noise tonality that each of the ten hears from the loudspeaker through their own ears or are we comparing it to the measured output of the speaker from a microphone?

 

[thewas]

You mean the sound samples played? Those are to show how those humans tonally perceived pink noise played through a HD600. To get this responses you can either do it by placing tiny mics inside your ear canal or play different pink noise bands and manually adjust them to make them sound equally loud, so as played from a neutral loudspeaker. If someone wants quickly to verify this behaviour himself he can listen to a sine sweep from a neutral loudspeaker and then from a neutral headphone, in the headphone playback he will notice some resonances (i.e. sound getting louder at some frequencies) that he won't hear when listening to the loudspeaker.

 

[sejarzo]

But what if you were sitting where the conductor is?

Also where are the microphones placed in a recording? Surely not out in the audience, so should we even expect a recording to sound like sitting in the audience?

Is the audience even the best place to enjoy an orchestra from? Or is it just a necessary fact of life based on the limitations of fitting a bunch of people in front of an orchestra for a performance?

I guess what I mean to say is why limit ourselves to emulating a concert hall? Why can't we try to take the experience to a higher and more intimate level than otherwise possible in the real world?

I actually agree with most of what you state, it's just that I became accustomed to the audience perspective, never having been a musician myself, and prefer that.

 

[SirMaster]

I actually agree with most of what you state, it's just that I became accustomed to the audience perspective, never having been a musician myself, and prefer that.

Yeah I think both points of view (listening) can certainly be valid.

Obviously an orchestra's performance is meant for the audience, but there is something to having it surround you and with more separation of the instruments that many can find pleasing and exciting.

 

[Berwhale]

The above discussion of ear canal anatomy, HRTF and a link that @Tks provided in another post about an acoustic ray tracing technology got me thinking. Would it be possible to use a 3D laser scan of the auricle and ear canal (as used to custom fit hearing aids and custom IEMs) as the input to an acoustic ray tracing algorithm to produce an personalised HRTF? So I consulted the Oracle (AKA Google) and found this interesting post on Stack Exchange...

https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/11250/getting-hrtf-from-3-d-scan-acoustic-simulation

Further research (AKA Googling) indicates that 3D laser scanning of the ear canal has matured significantly in the last few years, so i'm now wondering if anyone has commercialised the approach discussed in the linked post above.

 

[sejarzo]

Yeah I think both points of view (listening) can certainly be valid.

Obviously an orchestra's performance is meant for the audience, but there is something to having it surround you and with more separation of the instruments that many can find pleasing and exciting.

I own a few discs that seem to have been done with (less than optimally placed?) Decca trees, and I find the sounds of the conductor flipping pages, moving around on the podium, and in a few cases grunting to be quite distracting. I have to say none of that really adds much to my enjoyment of the recording.

A friend who has probably thousands of classical recordings told me that he doesn't like listening on headphones because he hears "too much of everything."

To each his own?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

One could imagine a 3D virtual space in which high res instrument recordings were placed and you could move around in the VR sim and change the instrument locations relative to one another.

 

[Berwhale]

One could imagine a 3D virtual space in which high res instrument recordings were placed and you could move around in the VR sim and change the instrument locations relative to one another.

Yes, see (and listen to on headphones) the 2nd video that TKS posted here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ai-powered-solutions.11537/

 

[thewas]

Further research (AKA Googling) indicates that 3D laser scanning of the ear canal has matured significantly in the last few years, so i'm now wondering if anyone has commercialised the approach discussed in the linked post above.

Actually quite some do, although not by laser:
https://www.genelec.com/aural-id
https://www.cnet.com/news/creatives-new-super-x-fi-audio-tech-is-frigging-mind-blowing/

 

[Berwhale]

Interesting, however, both those options rely on photos of the head, shoulders and outer ear. They don't account for the topology of the ear canal. I don't know if this is a problem, but some of the discussion above suggests that it may be.

Also, the Aural-ID cost 500€ + tax, which I feel would be better spent on more capable headphones than I already own! However, A Soundblaster X3 is only £110, so that could be work exploring.

 

[Dreyfus]

Does anyone know a tool for subjective loudness matching other than that offered by David Griesinger?

 

[thewas]

Afaik Griesinger is working one a newer one which should be more user friendly.

 

[mitchco]

Folks may be interested in the Impulcifer as well. Edit: and a commercial product with headtracker for reasonable $$'s https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/redscape-3d-audio-for-headphones-review-r879/