Headphone and interface for beginner music production

[JoeCool]

I'm a beginner in music production but I've reached the point where I'd like to upgrade my setup a bit, to get a clearer sound. For the moment I'll stick with headphones as I'll wake people up with speakers. I've got a pair of Superlex HD668B and using my motherboard's audio output into some ancient 'hifi' so I guess improving that won't be too difficult.

The DT 770, 880 and 990 seem to come up as suggestions around the internet quite a lot for dance music production, but I see the AKG K701 had a great review here (all around the same price in the UK atm). So I'm wondering what would be good for me. Currently I'm dabbling with lots of different genres but I guess psytrance would be something I'd like to write a lot of, if that is relevant.

Looking at interfaces, I was interested in the Audient ID4 II or Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 Gen 3. But I'm thinking those would rule out the K701 because of output impedence and THD for low impedence headphones respectively? So I was also thinking about spending a little more for the Motu M2 but it seems to be out of stock everywhere in the UK (maybe since January!).

At this point I'm a bit stuck so hope I can get some advice on hear. Many thanks for your thoughts.

 

[abdo123]

I personally wanted to buy the Motu M4 for a personal project, it's a very good well rounded product.

there is no substitute for a real speaker setup though, you can't get a balanced mix using a headphone no matter how neutral you think it is.

 

[JoeCool]

I personally wanted to buy the Motu M4 for a personal project, it's a very good well rounded product.

there is no substitute for a real speaker setup though, you can't get a balanced mix using a headphone no matter how neutral you think it is.

Thanks, yeah I will get speakers at some point but for now I can't (and I'm still at an early point in my learning). Looks like the M4 is also out of stock unfortunately.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Most affordable interfaces have headphone sections with mediocre power output. It would be smart to widen your possible headphones and get some that are easy to drive.

Maybe some Etymotics.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NSQBK1...colid=YZ61BTNRR8RL&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
These have the advantage of also isolating you from the sound in the room if you are ever recording in the same place you are listening.

While these have alow 15 ohm impedance and many interfaces have a high output impedance, they are easy enough to play that it usually won't be an issue for you.

In any case, you might look at some of the various headphone reviews and find some phones that won't need much of an amp to play them.

Also for not much over $100 you could get something like the JDS labs amps which are really good and have plenty of power. You would have two boxes that way, but set up at home if that is your intention that isn't so bad.

 

[JoeCool]

Also for not much over $100 you could get something like the JDS labs amps which are really good and have plenty of power. You would have two boxes that way, but set up at home if that is your intention that isn't so bad.

I'd have to get a USB to DAC with that though wouldn't I?

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'd have to get a USB to DAC with that though wouldn't I?

Not necessarily. The JDS Atom has analog input only. Can function as a pre and power amp for headphones. So you could route the analog output of the interface into the JDS for the phones.

 

[JoeCool]

Right, sorry that's what I meant. Shame to have an interface just for the USB to lineout. Basically I'm only interested in going from the computer to headphone amplifier for now so was trying to minimise purchases.

So as you say, expanding headphone choice is needed? Although perhaps the Motu M2 and AKG K701 would work?

 

[markanini]

You'll want to make final mixing decisions on speakers as mixing on headphones alone is can be deceiving. There's a place for headphones as a second reference, I cross check my work on headphones all the time, but speakers are king.

As far as choosing a headphone for working on dance music you want closed back. The best I've used are AKG K371. The caveat is that some people have fit issues. I was one of those people. Unless you can demo them before hand look at Beyerdynamic DT770 and Shure SRH440 as good alternatives.

 

[JoeCool]

Oops, I meant K371 not K701 all this time - sorry. Thanks for the suggestion.

Would the Motu M2 be enough for these or do I need something along the lines of what @Blumlein 88 recommends?

 

[dmac6419]

I'm a beginner in music production but I've reached the point where I'd like to upgrade my setup a bit, to get a clearer sound. For the moment I'll stick with headphones as I'll wake people up with speakers. I've got a pair of Superlex HD668B and using my motherboard's audio output into some ancient 'hifi' so I guess improving that won't be too difficult.

The DT 770, 880 and 990 seem to come up as suggestions around the internet quite a lot for dance music production, but I see the AKG K701 had a great review here (all around the same price in the UK atm). So I'm wondering what would be good for me. Currently I'm dabbling with lots of different genres but I guess psytrance would be something I'd like to write a lot of, if that is relevant.

Looking at interfaces, I was interested in the Audient ID4 II or Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 Gen 3. But I'm thinking those would rule out the K701 because of output impedence and THD for low impedence headphones respectively? So I was also thinking about spending a little more for the Motu M2 but it seems to be out of stock everywhere in the UK (maybe since January!).

At this point I'm a bit stuck so hope I can get some advice on hear. Many thanks for your thoughts.

Get a Presonus Audiobox Setup,it'll come with a Daw and get yourself some cheap headphones thats neutral, your choice oh the Superlux should be fine.

 

[JoeCool]

Get a Presonus Audiobox Setup,it'll come with a Daw and get yourself some cheap headphones thats neutral, your choice oh the Superlux should be fine.

When I say beginner, I've been a beginner for a little while. I've got Studio One and got to the point where I wanted to upgrade the audio hardware.

 

[dmac6419]

When I say beginner, I've been a beginner for a little while. I've got Studio One and got to the point where I wanted to upgrade the audio hardware.

Presonus Audiobox Studio26c should get you started,https://www.presonus.com/products/Audio-Interfaces

 

[JoeCool]

Presonus Audiobox Studio26c should get you started,https://www.presonus.com/products/Audio-Interfaces

On Julian Krause's channel he measured bad output impedance for the Studio 24c so I assume that's not good for the K371's. I don't know if the Studio 26c is similar? The Audiobox had bad frequency response.

I'm kinda thinking that at this budget my best options are:

Motu M2 + AKG K371 (assuming I could get my hands on the M2)
Audient ID4 Mk II + DT 770 250 Ohm

With choices being limited by the quality of headphone amps at this price point?

 

[Vict0r]

Sometimes you get lucky and can find a Motu M4 second hand. I picked mine up for $200 and couldn't be happier with it. Even the built-in headphone amp is decent!

 

[Bob-23]

But I'm thinking those would rule out the K701 because of output impedence

With the K701, you don't have to worry about amps' output impedances (with regards to frequency response), K702's impedance curve is flat, it's 'immune' to (high) output impedances. I've got the very similar K702, and can recommend them, very clear sound, great soundstage (some eq'ing helps).

When producing music, consider that recordings mixed on headphones are made for getting listened to on headphones, while recordings mixed on speakers (as is the majority of recordings, unfortunately, for headphone lovers) are always deficient when listened to on headphones. We'd need 2 mixes of each recording: one for speakers, and one for headphones.

 

[JoeCool]

With the K701, you don't have to worry about amps' output impedances (with regards to frequency response), K702's impedance curve is flat, it's 'immune' to (high) output impedances. I've got the very similar K702, and can recommend them, very clear sound, great soundstage (some eq'ing helps).

Sorry I meant K371 but I guess your point applies the same? But I thought that high impedance from the amp changes the frequency response of low impedance headphones (at least that was my understanding after watching one of Julian Krause's videos).

When producing music, consider that recordings mixed on headphones are made for getting listened to on headphones, while recordings mixed on speakers (as is the majority of recordings, unfortunately, for headphone lovers) are always deficient when listened to on headphones. We'd need 2 mixes of each recording: one for speakers, and one for headphones.

Yes this is just an intermediate step for me. I not ready to release anything soon.

 

[fieldcar]

Hello fellow amateur producer! I've been a FL studio user for about 20 years. (Dang I'm getting old)

There is truly no replacement for speakers, but if I had to use something. I'd also use the ER2SE or the K371's. I've got the K371's, sennheiser H280pro's(they suck), 58X's, HD555's, fidelio X2's, SHP9500's, monolith M570, HE-4XX.

Here are a few impressions:

• The ER2SE and ER4XR are probably the most perfect sounding IEM's in my collection(I have wayyyy too many IEM's). The isolation really helps with mixing, and the tuning is exactly what you want for studio work. They are a bit sub-bass light if I had any criticism. Your mixes may be too bassy as a result of cranking the EQ to compensate.
• The K371's should be pretty great if you want closed back. They are EXTREMELY efficient, and can run off of anything. The pinna gain follows the harman target near perfectly, but the sub bass is elevated. The closed back design will also have narrow soundstage compared to an open back just like an in ear monitor.
• The HE-4XX has a similar great tuning to the ER2SE, but flat bass that rolls off in the sub bass region. They require at least a $100 headphone amp like the JDS Atom, but if you have something really beefy, they can be cranked like no other without distortion. The open back nature of these make it sound wide open and airy, which is great for live music, but not really EDM. The tuning is similar to the hifiman he-400i.
• Maybe the Moondrop Aria. I just love the tuning on these, but they have a near similar pinna gain like the ER2SE, but with +10dB of bass to sub-bass. These will help keep your bass tame compared to the ER2SE. They may actually be a better choice now that I think about it.

https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/graphtool/
https://crinacle.com/graphs/iems/graphtool/

 

[fieldcar]

Oh. I forgot to mention. If you aren't going to record anything via XLR, I'd just get the earstudio HUD100 as it has an asio driver and it's on sale for $105 right now. I use it when I'm on the road and want to listen to music or do some music production. It can drive any IEM or the K371 to painful levels while having almost zero noise floor. The only thing is that the HE4XX is just moderately loud. This would be the case for any planar really. My focusrite scarlett 2i4's(for running my jbl 306pMKii's) headphone amp sucks big time, as do most prosumer audio interfaces in the affordable realm. The scarlett is a distortion factory that's basically identical to an average motherboard's output. I think someone said MOTU, and there are reviews on ASR, but I think it's very pricey.

https://earstudio.store/products/hud100 <--- link to their site where it's on sale.


EDIT:
The scarlett's only good for 27mW @ 33Ohm.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rlett-2i2-audio-interface-gen-3-review.10187/

The hud100 is about 137mW @ 33Ohm.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d100-portable-headphone-dac-amp-review.11881/

EDIT2:
Nevermind about the MOTU. They are also around 30mW@33Ohm.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/motu-m4-audio-interface-review.15757/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/motu-m2-review-audio-interface.19911/

 

[Bob-23]

Sorry I meant K371 but I guess your point applies the same? But I thought that high impedance from the amp changes the frequency response of low impedance headphones

It applies to The K371, too. Their impedance has not been measured by RAA [1], but solderdude has measured it - K371's impedance curve is (nearly) flat. - Both of them are great ressources!

"The output resistance of the used source/amplifier has NO practical influence on the sound/frequency response/tonal balance." [2]

With low impedance headphones, you might have insufficient power on amps with high output impedance.

When the headphones' impedance (which should then better be called 'resistance', as it doesn't vary with frequency) is constant over the whole frequency band, voltage division between the amp's output resistance (also the more adequate term) and the headphones' resistance also remains constant over the whole frequency band - hence, there's no unwanted frequency-dependent 'bending' of the frequency response.

[1] https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/catalog-reports.php?sp_1=1&sp_2=2&sp_12=12&tp=0&trp1=hp#4
[2] https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/akg/k371/

 

[JoeCool]

K371's impedance curve is (nearly) flat

Oh I get it now. Thanks for the explanation and the refs.

So I'm thinking that I'll go with the K371's and the Audient ID 4 Mk II, as the output impedance doesn't matter and it looks like it delivers approx 107mW @ 32Ohms (as long as I have the proper USB-C power supply which I'll need to add as I believe the Type A's on my motherboard won't have). And the THD, etc... look pretty good?

Unless there's a strong reason to go for the HUD100, accepting the loss of functionality? (thanks for the suggestion @fieldcar )