Headphone amplifier new vs vintage?

[DanielT]

Headphone amplifier new vs vintage?

See from # 17.

Amplifier NAD 3020 measurements from Stereo Review: 1979

Due to the discussion about NAD 3020 in this thread: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/does-the-amplifier-amplify-the-noise.30106/page-2 .., I thought it would fit with a separate thread. If you had a NAD 3020 then what did you think of that amplifier? The NAD 3020 is a...

audiosciencereview.com

What do you think?

 

[solderdude]

The NAD 3020 is not really suited as a headphone amp. Output resistance is a whopping 220Ω

 

[Robin L]

New. The headphone outs on old receivers are usually noisy. My Topping L30 is dead silent.

 

[DanielT]

New. The headphone outs on old receivers are usually noisy. My Topping L30 is dead silent.

Audible?

 

[DanielT]

The NAD 3020 is not really suited as a headphone amp. Output resistance is a whopping 220Ω

Any other vintage brand, model? Or maybe they are quite similar in that respect, regardless of make / model?

 

[Robin L]

Any other vintage brand, model? Or maybe they are quite similar in that respect, regardless of make / model?

I think a lot of the headphone outs are the amp signal through a resistor that drops level, raises impedance. So not a design for a headphone amp, just an afterthought for the features list.

And when I said the Topping L30 is "Dead silent" I was referring to background noise. Music is more than loud enough via the L30.

 

[threni]

Audible?

The silence speaks volumes.

 

[LTig]

The NAD 3020 is not really suited as a headphone amp. Output resistance is a whopping 220Ω

I think almost all integrated amps and preamps and probably also many vintage headphone amps have too high output impedance-certainly for todays low ohm headphones. At vintage times many highend headphones had impedances from 150 to 600 Ohm, but today they go down to 12 Ohm!

 

[DanielT]

I think a lot of the headphone outs are the amp signal through a resistor that drops level, raises impedance. So not a design for a headphone amp, just an afterthought for the features list.

And when I said the Topping L30 is "Dead silent" I was referring to background noise. Music is more than loud enough via the L30.

Do you mean, for example, the mechanical hum that CAN come from old vintage amp transformers? It is undeniably a matter of taste whether you accept it or not. Or do you mean noise that you hear in the headphones?

Hm, how do headphone jacks work in integrated amplifiers? What I mean is that the amplification of the signal hardly goes via the power section and then via various resistors is attenuated? The signal should go to the pre amp part, which is operated in class A (if I am not mistaken). So, eh hm. I really do not know. Basic amp design and I do not know. Sorry.

Edit:
I posted my post and now see threni and LTig's comments.

 

[Robin L]

Do you mean, for example, the mechanical hum that will CAN come from old vintage amp transformers? It is undeniably a matter of taste whether you accept it or not. Or do you mean noise that you hear in the headphones?

Hm, how do headphone jacks work in integrated amplifiers? What I mean is that the amplification of the signal hardly goes via the power section and then via various resistors is attenuated? The signal should go to the pre amp part, which is operated in class A (if I am not mistaken). So, eh hm. I really do not know. Basic amp design and I do not know. Sorry.

I mean noise I hear from the amp via headphones, hiss & hum, usually. To the best of my knowledge, a lot of the older designs take the amplification intended for the speakers and drop the level with resistors for the headphone out. The self-noise of older amps is a lot higher than on modern designs.

 

[DanielT]

I mean noise I hear from the amp via headphones, hiss & hum, usually. To the best of my knowledge, a lot of the older designs take the amplification intended for the speakers and drop the level with resistors for the headphone out. The self-noise of older amps is a lot higher than on modern designs.

Interesting. Is it performance in itself that does not live up to the current sound ideal / expectations or is it the tooth of time that has deteriorated the sound quality? So the electronics in the amplifier have deteriorated, compared to what it was like new.

Edit:
Why take the signal headphone jack via the power amp part? It seems backwards.But maybe there are different design solutions?

 

[Robin L]

Interesting. Is it performance in itself that does not live up to the current sound ideal / expectations or is it the tooth of time that has deteriorated the sound quality? So the electronics in the amplifier have deteriorated, compared to what it was like new.

No, the difference is in the quality of the design and execution of modern headphone amps. Before desktop audio and the rise of audio headgear, "headphone amps" were not a thing, so manufacturers took the cheapest route for "headphone out" with receivers and amps.

Edit:
Why take the signal headphone jack via the power amp part? It seems backwards.

I dunno, ask an EE, I'm just a lowly recordist.

 

[DanielT]

Hum, I'll try one thing. Via the headphone socket in the amplifier and via the mounted pre amp.

I'll be back.

Project sub output

An old amplifier Luxor 7082 A. I connected a high to low level converter on the speaker outputs, to be able to connect an active subwoofer. Connected in parallel, together with the cables to the speakers. The converter: My friend said: why not take the signal directly from the pre amp section...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
I'll just fix, see picture.

 

[solderdude]

Nearly all amps from that era and many poweramps with a headphone out even today use the poweramp outputs through resistors.
Works fine for high impedance headphones, which most were back in those days.

This was done because headphones in these days required a high voltage and this was already available at the speaker outputs.

 

[DanielT]

Nearly all amps from that era and many poweramps with a headphone out even today use the poweramp outputs through resistors.
Works fine for high impedance headphones, which most were back in those days.

This was done because headphones in these days required a high voltage and this was already available at the speaker outputs.

Aha, interesting. I did not know that. What I do know, however, is that our ears are different, so you have to fix sensible sound with :

How about EQ with headphones?

You who do EQ with headphones . EQ setting,it's based on subjective, liking and taste in terms of sound, right? Subjectively because frequency curves and headphones are pretty pointless (how measure?) to start with because our ears look different, right? Or what do I know there may be special...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
Just want to add to the protocol that when it comes to sound and Hifi, I am not fixated on Vintage! Although I think the Vintage look is nice.
Good sound then it is probably most affordable with new, perhaps. Can I guess. Of course there is good and bad old as new Hifi, but in general. By the way, if Vintage can measure up to something new, see here (you probably know the thread, more general information to others):

Vintage amplifiers that could challenge or approach current state of the art amplifiers

I was asked by @GXAlan to suggest a "top 3" amplifiers, but to narrow down to just 3 seems an impossible task. There have been thousands of wonderful products from many hundreds of manufacturers for well over half a century, but which ones have the performance chops to equal or better some of...

audiosciencereview.com

Old vs nowadays I only say the digital world and HiFi. Then it was basically decided.

 

[tvrgeek]

I remember when the Grado RA1 and Coy were the hot amps. Much has changed. For $100 to $150 you can get an amp that can drive anything and distortion below the threshold of hearing. So why not?

Solderdude, not quite so. My first cans were Sony, 8 Ohms. If I remember, many of the early Koss were below 32, as are my Grados.
But using the big power amp and resistors is far higher distortion and noise than can be had now for chicken feed. It was done because it was cheap, and back then, features counted. The more jacks and switches, meters, lights, and wood cabinets the better.