Headphone amp with crossfeed and no DAC suggestion?

[psychokiller]

Would like to build a setup with Raspberry + Topping D10 + an headphone amp with cross feed, but:

1. Meyer products have horrible measurements
2. iFi Micro iDSD also has a DAC
3. RME ADI DAC also has a DAC
4. MiniDSP is fully configurable but requires a PhD in physics and acoustics to properly set up crossfeed
5. Phonitor Mini is out of production and no reseller in Europe seems to have any more unit in stock
6. Other SPL products costs an arm and a leg and are too bulky

Anyone has any idea about a good and not-too-expensive headphone amp with crossfeed or separate crossfeed units?

 

[Fluffy]

Why not software crossfeed?

 

[psychokiller]

The only implementation I know of crossfeed for Raspberry is in Moode and I am using Logitech Media Server + Squeezelite and might switch to Roon.

If anyone know of any good implementation of software crossfeed on Raspberry please be specific. And I definitely exclude the possibility of using a PC as source because this must be a bedroom-side friendly setup.

Also don't like the idea of using software crossfeed because often those are implemented by hobbyist with no guarantee of what's in, often are hard to setup and sometimes introduce problems.

 

[psychokiller]

Seems the topic of crossfeed only matters to me or really there is very little to say. Probably that's the same thing.

 

[KozmoNaut]

I would like a decent hardware crossfeed device as well, but the only affordable option seem to be DIY: http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/x-feed.htm

Instead, I have resorted to crossfeed plugins. On Linux, Quod Libet has a configurable crossfeed plugin, with decent presets. Foobar2000 on both desktop and mobile has a Meier crossfeed plugin, which is also very pleasing. Another plugin available for a number of players is BS2B. All of these work fine for me, since I only want a mild crossfeed to reduce excessive stereo effects.

For a system-wide solution, there are version of BS2B that will work with EqualizerAPO for Windows, and Pulseaudio for Linux. They do require a bit of setup, though.

 

[Hipper]

Why do you want crossfeed? Have you heard it and found it to your liking?

I had it for years in a Headroom Blockhead but I now use another headphone amp with no crossfeed and don't miss it at all. Many high end headphone amps don't have it. I can't help thinking that it was an interesting idea which in practice is not worth the trouble.

The theory behind it is that when we listen to speakers, the left ear for example not only receives the sound from the left speaker but also from the right, known as 'interaural crosstalk'. Of course on headphones we only get the left signal in the left ear. A crossfeed processor creates the right side's signal for headphones. This, it is claimed, makes headphone listening more speaker like and less fatiguing.

Alternatively there are those that think that when we listen to speakers we should prevent this interaural crosstalk - see 'Ambiophonics'.

There's other headphone software that tries to replicate speakers, such as 'Out of Your Head':

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

 

[KozmoNaut]

For me, crossfeed takes the sound from being distinctly in each ear, and brings it towards the middle, primarily the low frequencies.

 

[psychokiller]

Why do you want crossfeed? Have you heard it and found it to your liking?

I had it for years in a Headroom Blockhead but I now use another headphone amp with no crossfeed and don't miss it at all. Many high end headphone amps don't have it. I can't help thinking that it was an interesting idea which in practice is not worth the trouble.

The theory behind it is that when we listen to speakers, the left ear for example not only receives the sound from the left speaker but also from the right, known as 'interaural crosstalk'. Of course on headphones we only get the left signal in the left ear. A crossfeed processor creates the right side's signal for headphones. This, it is claimed, makes headphone listening more speaker like and less fatiguing.

Alternatively there are those that think that when we listen to speakers we should prevent this interaural crosstalk - see 'Ambiophonics'.

There's other headphone software that tries to replicate speakers, such as 'Out of Your Head':

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

I want cross feed for some reason:

• I tried software plugins with foobar and AIMP and it improves subtly but definitely better the experience in IEM and headphone listening with many kinds of music, especially acoustic audiophile recordings or pre-eighties recordings, please remember the SONY Walkman was released in 1979 and the iPhone in 2007, somewhere in between those 30 years recording engineers switched to mixing and mastering commercial music to sound great on IEM, before that it was mastered to sound great on speakers. Audiophile recordings still are mixed and mastered to sound great on speakers.
• since I wish to use a Raspberry with Logitech Media Server + Squeezelite or Roon + Roopie (or another Pi Roon endpoint) to stream a large music collection that I have obtained from my large CD collection, professionally ripped from my not-so-large vinyl collection and other means I better not describe in details here; software plugins are not the best suited in terms of configuration, in my opinion; also add that the setup must be a bedside setup (and/or a fireplace setup with limited space) so no PC or laptop can be involved.
• I suppose well implemented hardware cross feed should sound as good or better than software ones that sometimes has glitches even on a i5 laptop
• I would prefer to implement crossfeed between source DAC and headphone amp, or in the headphone amp itself, in the analog domain, where I think it belongs, not in the digital domain, as some DAC do, like RME ADI or Mini DSP, also to have more freedom to play and switch components in my audio chain as I like

So these are the reason. I think I am a niche listener and probably will never find what I am looking for. One day might adopt the iFi Micro iDSD that has a 3D sound option and IEM output, or maybe put my hard earned money in an RME ADI with IEM output and digital domain crossfeed, but for now I Keep looking for analog domain solutions.

Paolo

 

[psychokiller]

Why do you want crossfeed? Have you heard it and found it to your liking?

I had it for years in a Headroom Blockhead but I now use another headphone amp with no crossfeed and don't miss it at all. Many high end headphone amps don't have it. I can't help thinking that it was an interesting idea which in practice is not worth the trouble.

The theory behind it is that when we listen to speakers, the left ear for example not only receives the sound from the left speaker but also from the right, known as 'interaural crosstalk'. Of course on headphones we only get the left signal in the left ear. A crossfeed processor creates the right side's signal for headphones. This, it is claimed, makes headphone listening more speaker like and less fatiguing.

Alternatively there are those that think that when we listen to speakers we should prevent this interaural crosstalk - see 'Ambiophonics'.

There's other headphone software that tries to replicate speakers, such as 'Out of Your Head':

https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

Thanx for your advice, but Fong software seems to be only for PCs and I am looking for a bedside setup involving a Raspberry Pi and no PC.

Not to mention the costs, from website:

The retail price Out Of Your Head is $149. This price includes one free speaker preset.​

Each additional preset is $25.​

 

[Hipper]

There is the Smyth Realiser which is the hardware equivalent of the Fong software:

https://smyth-research.com/

It's around $4,000 though!

There's the SPL Phonitor:

https://spl.audio/professional-fidelity/phonitor-x/?lang=en

They start at around 2,000 Euros.

The only others I heard of were Meier. Apparently he once made a unit that just did crossfeed:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/meier-audio-corda-cross-1-crossfeed-unit-last-unit.557313/

Headroom used to make amps with crossfeed (like the Blockhead I mentioned) but I don't know where or if they are available anymore:

https://www.amazon.com/HeadRoom-Desktop-Balanced-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B013Z8P6CU

 

[somebodyelse]

Moode and the volumio plugin use the b2sb LADSPA plugin which is quite well documented. They both use the same approach, modifying the alsa config so that the player output goes through the crossfeed plugin on its way to the DAC. Moode uses fixed settings while volumio gives a few options. If you're up to it you could make similar changes yourself and use it with squeezelite. People have done similar manual changes to get it working with Rune. The important bits are installing b2sb, adding to the asound.conf and setting the output device for squeezelite.

 

[FourT6and2]

Is crossfeed similar to BS2B?

 

[KozmoNaut]

BS2B is an implementation of crossfeed.

 

[somebodyelse]

Is crossfeed similar to BS2B?

It's a crossfeed implementation with adjustable cutoff frequency and crossfeed level. The LADSPA plugin link shows settings to give you the response of the Chu Moy and Meier CORDA versions, or speakers at 30 degrees 3m away (default), but you can use other settings if you prefer. It's got links to references on several other crossfeed implementations.

 

[MRC01]

Would like to build a setup with Raspberry + Topping D10 + an headphone amp with cross feed, but:

1. Meyer products have horrible measurements ...

To cut to the answer: the JDS Atom and Geshelli Archel are two of the few amps that measure better than the Meier Corda Jazz at the low to moderate volume levels people actually use for listening, and are much more powerful, and less expensive. Then you can apply crossfeed in DSP at your source. That would be my recommendation.

Regarding crossfeed, check out this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/crossfeed-for-headphones.12492/

That said, regarding the Meier Corda Jazz... Reading the full review thread, it's a unique design that sacrifices output voltage for better performance at low to medium volume levels. This is evident in its 50 mV SNR, which is among the best Amir has measured. It has flat FR and perfect channel balance even down to the lowest volume settings. Its output impedance is less than 1 ohm and it produces 10x more power into 30 ohms than 300, so it's not current limited. To put its max output voltage into perspective: 3.7V is about 114 dB SPL with the Sennheiser HD600, 120 dB SPL with the Audeze LCD-2F. However, 50 mV is a better indicator of real-world performance because it resembles actual listening levels: about 77 dB SPL with the HD600 and 83 with the LCD-2F.

Headroom used to make amps with crossfeed (like the Blockhead I mentioned) but I don't know where or if they are available anymore:
https://www.amazon.com/HeadRoom-Desktop-Balanced-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B013Z8P6CU

The old Headroom amps also have crossfeed, and they're well built. I used to own a Maxed Out Home. But I would not recommend these amps because the crossfeed is pretty crude, nowhere near as good as the Meier crossfeed. And you can get better amps for less money.

 

[amanieux]

when i listened to Foobar2000's meier crossfeed and it seem to only move the sound from the sides to the center as if it only converted stereo to mono. this is not what i hear when listening to speakers( with speakers i still hear stereo but with more transparency,less analytical and more natural sounding than with headphones). so is this crossfeed effect poorly done or is the "speaker like" effect more than just crossfeed (more complex room reflections and sound boucing off our head/ears shape ...) and is there a software effect that mimic speakers sound on headphones more completely than just crossfeed effect ? what is it called ? thanks

 

[maverickronin]

when i listened to Foobar2000's meier crossfeed and it seem to only move the sound from the sides to the center as if it only converted stereo to mono. this is not what i hear when listening to speakers( with speakers i still hear stereo but with more transparency,less analytical and more natural sounding than with headphones). so is this crossfeed effect poorly done or is the "speaker like" effect more than just crossfeed (more complex room reflections and sound boucing off our head/ears shape ...) and is there a software effect that mimic speakers sound on headphones more completely than just crossfeed effect ? what is it called ? thanks

TB Isone is pretty good.

It has an adjustable HRTF and even a full room simulator if you want.

 

[StevenEleven]

I use this—Behringer Monitor2USB. I like it so much I have two:

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0BK

I actually run a raspberry pi USB digital out into one and use it for headphone listening. The other one I run from my computer USB out to headphones and speakers. It also has XLR ins and outs.

About $150 or so, but I’m wondering if there is a shortage or they are coming to the end of their production run, because prices are going up and availability down.

It can be a USB DAC or an analog preamp and has two headphone outs with continuously variable crossfeed. This is important to me because different music can need different amounts of crossfeed for me.

I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t measure that well but it does exactly the things I want it to do and there’s not anything else I know of quite like it.

 

[A.West]

Ifi's 3d sounds nothing like typical crossfeed to me. I found ifi 3d helpful for some duller recordings with closed DT770 headphones. But would never use it with HD800 headphones. Ifi 3D seems to open the soundstage and brighten treble. Crossfeed tends to narrow the Soundstage.
I wish there was a software equivalent of ifi 3d, but I havent found it. Software crossfeed is common. I like my RME DAC and use its equalization, but haven't preferred its crossfeed options with HD800 headphones.

 

[BillG]

If one is willing to use a mini-PC for the task - some of them aren't much bigger than a RPi in a case - then all of those software options mentioned become available.