HE6Se v2 + EF499 (as DAC) and Monolith THX 887, persistent headaches and tinnitus...

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Thanks! I already made an appointment with an ENT specialist so I'll have answers next week.

As for the recommendations, I see they are 3-5k sets and are currently out of my budget range. What made the HE6se very appealing was the exceptional price to performance ratio. I haven't heard many high end 1k+ headphones, but I've heard many 300-400 Euro sets and the HE6se in this range is unmatched. Lets hope this little experiment didn't cost me some of my hearing.

Again, thanks for taking the time to reply. Focusing the discussion away from the amp and towards the tinitus may prove to be more beneficial to me in the long term.

I can fully understand that. But there is really no requirement to spend that much to get amazing sound.
The key is to find a headphone that just fits us - in terms of look, comfort, price, sound.
Especially higher frequencies can be problematic to iron out as you really cannot trust measurements up top, every headphone will behave differently when it comes to HF, because of our head and ears shape.

My rule of thumb is, find a headphone that has low distortion and is the smoothest sounding in HF on your head. Rest can be pretty easily tuned by PEQ

 

[cursive]

There's a lot of undue mystical properties given to these headphones, and most of the power requirements are just total nonsense, and hurts people new to these cans, or new to the hobby. I've owned the HE6se v2 three separate times, and the power requirements are overblown, and people who say it needs even more power to sound right, or needs more power to somehow mellow out are mistaken I think there's 2 possible factors to what you're experiencing.

First- Something about the actual frequency response irritates your ears, or brain. I'm a huge fan of EQ, and I would highly recommend using EQ with these, or any headphones, regardless of if you get headaches, or ear pain. There's a lot to be gained with EQ, and it's pretty much free no matter what platform you listen on.

I currently use several different EQ profiles, and sometimes modify them to my liking. But all of them sound better than the stock tuning. Most used are probably the ones from diyaudioheaven.com (a site ran by our awesome resident solderdude), oratory 1990, or Junki or Antroid from headphones.com. Again lots of eq profiles for this set, and all are better than stock, and you can tweak from there to try and eliminate your personal sensitivities

Second - Something about the fit of this headphone is absolutely the most uncomfortable headphone I've ever owned. I have the same headband on several other Hifiman headphones (edition xs) but I believe this crappy headband, combined with the high weight of the HE6SE v2 magnet structure makes them the worst of the bunch, and at times extremely painful. Sometimes I would get the direct center top hotspot, other times I would just get an overall headache from them. This manifested as just an overall aching sensation, not from a specific area, but most likely related to clamp force/ weight/ headband combination.

To solve this I'd recommend at a minimum, the 3d printed capra strap. https://capraaudio.com/products/hifiman-comfort-strap This makes this headband way more tolerable, and I have no pain on my edition XS that I switched to this headband. The huge surface area helps a lot with heavy dual magnet planars like the HE-6. Easy to purchase from Capra, or have 3d printed locally. The 3d print files are free on their site if needed.

If you're willing to spend more (I would make sure you truly plan to keep these headphones) then I would recommend the hifiman comfort strap. https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/the-newly-enhanced-comfort-headband.html The price is steep for the quality at $75.00 for fake leather and plastic, but it is WAY more comfortable, and looks nice as it's original hifiman.

You have to use a screw driver and disassemble them to install the official hifman strap, so please keep that in mind. TO me was well worth it, and totally eliminated any comfort issues I had with the HE6SE v2, no more headaches, no more hotspot, and I wear them for long multi-hour gaming sessions quite regularly.

Hope this helps as I personally really enjoy these headphones. I also do really enjoy my edition XS which are considerably cheaper, egg shape vs round which works better for some peoples heads, but also the Edition XS are significantly lighter, and easier to drive which suits a lot more people. I do think the HE-6 SE V2 are overall better, but just some food for thought.

 

[Metala]

First of all, thanks to everyone for the replies and tips, and sorry for vanishing for almost a month with no update.

I tried different EQ profiles and different solutions for the straps. Even printed new grills.
The comfort is fixable, it was also one of the reasons for the headaches. The grills didn't do much, I didn't feel much larger stage.

Unfortunately I couldn't fix the tinnitus, headaches and overall tiredness and after listening to them. I tried 4-5 different EQs, some specifically reducing the harshness. It never got better. Last time I got the same symptoms after a listening session, I decided to check my blood pressure and found out it was 149/90, which is the first time I had high bp. I am usually a low bp guy.

Is it related, I don't know, but 36 hours later, as the usual HE6SE symptoms subsided, by BP got normalized as well.

As a result, I decided to part ways with my HE6SE (I have a very generous 90 days return window). It's a real shame, because the sound was truly unique, especially for the price of sub 350 Euros...

This week I have a scheduled hearing test, I hope I haven't done permanent damage.

 

[solderdude]

Tinnitus is a brain issue and can be triggered by many different things.

In your case the HE6SE cannot have caused any 'damage' to your ears unless you blasted your ears with super high SPL which simply is not possible given the very insensitive nature.
There also isn't a lot of treble peaking (just a few dB emphasis) in these HE6SE either so treble could not have been the cause for the tinnitus.
You would need to have connected it to a 100W plus power amp speaker terminals to have reached ear damaging levels.

It is most likely an unfortunate combination of factors that made you suspect the HE6SE had anything to do with it.
For instance .. anxiety that the HE6SE could possibly set off tinnitus can raise your PB and cause tinnitus for one thing...

The most compelling reason for the HE6SE not being the reason is that EQ (mostly in the treble) did not change anything so it can't be the headphone.

I heard the HE6SE and the treble is much less sharp than any other hifiman (other than Susvara and original HE6).

 

[Metala]

Tinnitus is a brain issue and can be triggered by many different things.

In your case the HE6SE cannot have caused any 'damage' to your ears unless you blasted your ears with super high SPL which simply is not possible given the very insensitive nature.
There also isn't a lot of treble peaking (just a few dB emphasis) in these HE6SE either so treble could not have been the cause for the tinnitus.
You would need to have connected it to a 100W plus power amp speaker terminals to have reached ear damaging levels.

It is most likely an unfortunate combination of factors that made you suspect the HE6SE had anything to do with it.
For instance .. anxiety that the HE6SE could possibly set off tinnitus can raise your PB and cause tinnitus for one thing...

The most compelling reason for the HE6SE not being the reason is that EQ (mostly in the treble) did not change anything so it can't be the headphone.

I heard the HE6SE and the treble is much less sharp than any other hifiman (other than Susvara and original HE6).

I appreciate you challenging my conclusion. I want to keep those headphones and already invested in amps and modifications for them.

Tinnitus is a brain issue indeed. It can be caused by anxiety, high blood pressure, very loud music and even certain frequencies that may not be a problem to others.

I did listen to the HE6SE very loud in the beginning, even though I didn't feel discomfort while listening. The headache and tinnitus became apparent the moment I stopped the music and continued multiple days after that. It is still not completely gone.

I know the HE6SE is related to both of these symptoms. They started the moment I listened to them and are getting worse each time I listen to them again. I had 6 weeks of testing and even consulted a ENT doctor that eventually advised me to get rid of the headphones "if I plan to use my hearing for the long term".I was told everyone experiences music very differently depending on their ear canal anathomy and perception, irregardless of "measurements" and the onset of these symptoms can't be a good thing.

None of my other headphones had ever caused me headaches or tinnitus - even after the onset of the symptoms, listening to my Sundara and Sony felt like a relief.

Considering Hifiman's "spotless" quality controll, it could very well be my specific unit. I got it "new" from an official Polish subsidiary for the insanely low 315 Euro.

Whatever the real reason, the fact is - I feel horrible for days after listening to these specific cans, always, even if I use different preset and listen to them at very low volume.

Again, I don't want to argue and I appreciate any insight. Maybe my case could help someone else in the future experiencing the same symptoms.

 

[Curupira]

I appreciate you challenging my conclusion. I want to keep those headphones and already invested in amps and modifications for them.

Tinnitus is a brain issue indeed. It can be caused by anxiety, high blood pressure, very loud music and even certain frequencies that may not be a problem to others.

I did listen to the HE6SE very loud in the beginning, even though I didn't feel discomfort while listening. The headache and tinnitus became apparent the moment I stopped the music and continued multiple days after that. It is still not completely gone.

I know the HE6SE is related to both of these symptoms. They started the moment I listened to them and are getting worse each time I listen to them again. I had 6 weeks of testing and even consulted a ENT doctor that eventually advised me to get rid of the headphones "if I plan to use my hearing for the long term".I was told everyone experiences music very differently depending on their ear canal anathomy and perception, irregardless of "measurements" and the onset of these symptoms can't be a good thing.

None of my other headphones had ever caused me headaches or tinnitus - even after the onset of the symptoms, listening to my Sundara and Sony felt like a relief.

Considering Hifiman's "spotless" quality controll, it could very well be my specific unit. I got it "new" from an official Polish subsidiary for the insanely low 315 Euro.

Whatever the real reason, the fact is - I feel horrible for days after listening to these specific cans, always, even if I use different preset and listen to them at very low volume.

Again, I don't want to argue and I appreciate any insight. Maybe my case could help someone else in the future experiencing the same symptoms.

Go with your doctor's advice. We have all the objective evidence to disqualify the HE6SE as being the culprit both from a large sample perspective, and from a analytical perspective (EQ not changing the result for you). But, in the end, it's your comfort on the line, your wellbeing. The 6SE is just a headphone, and if you can appreciate others that don't cause you tinnitus, I don't see why you should insist in a solution that makes you feel unwell just because it was a bit expensive: that is the sunken cost fallacy.

 

[solderdude]

The headache and tinnitus became apparent the moment I stopped the music and continued multiple days after that. It is still not completely gone.

Consider this...

What if .... the tinnitus just occurred at that moment and you had happened to be listening to the HE6SE at that moment.

There is nothing in the HE6SE response that would trigger a sudden onset of tinnitus. Playing the HE6SE loud enough to cause hearing damage takes a substantially powerful amp.
Even when playing loud for longer period was the trigger it is not related to the HE6SE but to loudness.

The Sundara does have 5dB higher treble peaking than HE6SE and can play a lot louder on any source (higher sensitivity).

It could be (not saying it is) just a coincidence your brain developed tinnitus just at that moment. It would be the most logical thing to link both occurrences as the make sense to be linked (but may still be coincidence). Also.. when you saw an ENT and you told him your story he would be silly not to advice you to get rid of the headphone. He would be basing that on your testimonial mostly as you mentioned playing loud and it started after that.

I never had tinnitus and one day I woke up with a tone in my 'left ear' and still have till this day. Because the cause is different I fortunately found a way to manage it.

Tinnitus can pop up suddenly and may not have anything to do with what you were doing is my point.

 

[jmdesignz2]

I appreciate you challenging my conclusion. I want to keep those headphones and already invested in amps and modifications for them.

Tinnitus is a brain issue indeed. It can be caused by anxiety, high blood pressure, very loud music and even certain frequencies that may not be a problem to others.

I did listen to the HE6SE very loud in the beginning, even though I didn't feel discomfort while listening. The headache and tinnitus became apparent the moment I stopped the music and continued multiple days after that. It is still not completely gone.

I know the HE6SE is related to both of these symptoms. They started the moment I listened to them and are getting worse each time I listen to them again. I had 6 weeks of testing and even consulted a ENT doctor that eventually advised me to get rid of the headphones "if I plan to use my hearing for the long term".I was told everyone experiences music very differently depending on their ear canal anathomy and perception, irregardless of "measurements" and the onset of these symptoms can't be a good thing.

None of my other headphones had ever caused me headaches or tinnitus - even after the onset of the symptoms, listening to my Sundara and Sony felt like a relief.

Considering Hifiman's "spotless" quality controll, it could very well be my specific unit. I got it "new" from an official Polish subsidiary for the insanely low 315 Euro.

Whatever the real reason, the fact is - I feel horrible for days after listening to these specific cans, always, even if I use different preset and listen to them at very low volume.

Again, I don't want to argue and I appreciate any insight. Maybe my case could help someone else in the future experiencing the same symptoms.

Tinitus can also be caused by EAR WAX of all things

Tinnitus and ear wax - Tinnitus UK

General advice says to leave ear wax alone. However, ear wax build-up can trigger tinnitus for some people.

tinnitus.org.uk

 

[AryaStealth]

My theory: you have a little bit of hearing loss, and with he6se you hear the damaged frequency range(s) too loud (if we assume that he6se has an emphasis there on your head) so tinnitus and headaches can be the price to pay because we are not supposed to just add more gain to a damaged frequeny range, we can only amplify quiet sounds in that range up to a certain volume and lower the volume of too loud sounds if they are perceived as extremely loud and distorted (it can only be done with some sophisticated dsp/hearing aid, and not by eq gain or headphone resonance).

 

[solderdude]

Tinitus can also be caused by EAR WAX of all things

Tinnitus and ear wax - Tinnitus UK

General advice says to leave ear wax alone. However, ear wax build-up can trigger tinnitus for some people.

tinnitus.org.uk

Yep one of many reasons... but the ENT would have told him he had earwax build-up and syringed his ears and the tinnitus would go away in a few days ?

It's one of the reasons I don't use IEM's or put anything in my ear(s).
Each time you insert you shove earwax back in again and may even damage hairs inside the ear canal.
The hairs are there to move dirt etc. out of the ear using earwax as transport medium.

 

[Metala]

Some very good points mentioned.

I definitely have damage to my hearing. 20+ years ago at a new year's celebration, a small explosive went off near my left ear and since then I hear certain (upper mids?) frequences painfully distorted - but I got used to them and I can't really remember how they should sound right. On concerts sometimes, I can't stand the sound mixing and it feels painful to me when others claim the sound is perfect for them - so there's that.

Then a few years later after a metal concert where I was near the loudspeakers, I got very severe tinnitus and had to undergo a few weeks of daily infusions (probably cortisons). This tinnitus got chronic, probably due to the accompanying hearing loss. It took me very long to find a way to manage it and I started to be more careful.

Most of my daily life, my tinnitus is managed with the very rare occasions, once every 1-3 years, when I have extreme stress or I happen to be on a "badly" mixed harsh concert with no protection and then it leads to a prolonged tinnitus flare up. Listening to the HE6SE, even at lower volumes has the exact effect for me. The difference is that they don't sound painful when listening. Maybe there's a weird inaudible resonance or something specific to my hearing loss or perception that creates these symptoms.

I didn't have earwax. When I went to the ENT, I already had the symptoms because I listened on the HE6se before my appointment (For science!). After the exam, the doctor told me my ear canals are inflamed and applied some creme - so it is not only the subjective feeling of tinnitus. This week, after my final HE6SE test listening with an EQ preset, I started feeling bad again and remembered I had a blood pressure monitor and found out my BP was unusually high for me 149/90 which correlates with the symptoms. I am always low BP and had never measured high BP before. The elevated blood pressure normalized together with the headache and tinnitus intensity after about 36-40 hours and since then my BP is normal... again, this happened only after listening to the HE6SE. Since then I am blasting my Sundara with much higher volume and everything is fine.

To be fair, at the very beginning, based on only my "story", the ENT was also sceptical that some random headphones can induce all this, but the visible inflamation and the fact that other headphones do not cause or worsen my symptoms, made them change their mind, appointed a hearing test just in case for this coming Friday, and suggested that I should replace the headphones.

Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for working with me to find the cause of this.

 

[Moonhead]

Since you also own Sundara, do you known if HE6SE has a higher clamping force, That certainly affects my tinnitus.

 

[solderdude]

Some very good points mentioned.

I definitely have damage to my hearing. 20+ years ago at a new year's celebration, a small explosive went off near my left ear and since then I hear certain (upper mids?) frequences painfully distorted - but I got used to them and I can't really remember how they should sound right. On concerts sometimes, I can't stand the sound mixing and it feels painful to me when others claim the sound is perfect for them - so there's that.

Then a few years later after a metal concert where I was near the loudspeakers, I got very severe tinnitus and had to undergo a few weeks of daily infusions (probably cortisons). This tinnitus got chronic, probably due to the accompanying hearing loss. It took me very long to find a way to manage it and I started to be more careful.

Most of my daily life, my tinnitus is managed with the very rare occasions, once every 1-3 years, when I have extreme stress or I happen to be on a "badly" mixed harsh concert with no protection and then it leads to a prolonged tinnitus flare up. Listening to the HE6SE, even at lower volumes has the exact effect for me. The difference is that they don't sound painful when listening. Maybe there's a weird inaudible resonance or something specific to my hearing loss or perception that creates these symptoms.

I didn't have earwax. When I went to the ENT, I already had the symptoms because I listened on the HE6se before my appointment (For science!). After the exam, the doctor told me my ear canals are inflamed and applied some creme - so it is not only the subjective feeling of tinnitus. This week, after my final HE6SE test listening with an EQ preset, I started feeling bad again and remembered I had a blood pressure monitor and found out my BP was unusually high for me 149/90 which correlates with the symptoms. I am always low BP and had never measured high BP before. The elevated blood pressure normalized together with the headache and tinnitus intensity after about 36-40 hours and since then my BP is normal... again, this happened only after listening to the HE6SE. Since then I am blasting my Sundara with much higher volume and everything is fine.

To be fair, at the very beginning, based on only my "story", the ENT was also sceptical that some random headphones can induce all this, but the visible inflamation and the fact that other headphones do not cause or worsen my symptoms, made them change their mind, appointed a hearing test just in case for this coming Friday, and suggested that I should replace the headphones.

Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for working with me to find the cause of this.

Sorry to hear about your auditory troubles.

Very, very loud sounds will damage hearing and will leave eternal 'marks'.

I still suspect it has noting to do with the HE6SE 'sound quality aspects'.
Could be physical discomfort triggering it (weight, clamping force, longer listening (HE6SE is quite enjoyable) heating up the ear canal a bit more or whatever other reason.

Your case is quite unique and if you get the strong feeling that 'whatever the HE6SE does' is making it worse/triggering tinnitus then... return it.
It is highly unlikely (also given your EQ attempts) that it has anything to do with 'the sound' of the HE6SE but rather some other aspect.

I mean ... the Sundara and HE6SE have the same pads, are equally 'closed' in front volume. They mostly differ in weight, comfort, clamping force and the HE6SE response is 'smoother' and has less HF peaking and distortion.

 

[Metala]

I still suspect it has noting to do with the HE6SE 'sound quality aspects'.
Could be physical discomfort triggering it (weight, clamping force, longer listening (HE6SE is quite enjoyable) heating up the ear canal a bit more or whatever other reason.

I mean ... the Sundara and HE6SE have the same pads, are equally 'closed' in front volume. They mostly differ in weight, comfort, clamping force and the HE6SE response is 'smoother' and has less HF peaking and distortion.

Ok, I hear you. I am open to make one last attempt. Worst case scenario, I'll have to suffer a few extra days, which is acceptable if it gives me a realistic chance tomake them "work".

But first, let me get this right - you're saying, that clamp force, weight and ergonomics CAN cause severe tinnitus and headaches lasting for a few days? What about the ear inflamation?

Don't laugh, but I did try to minimize the hotspot on my head by putting a small towel under the headstrap Weird looking, pushed everything upwards... I think that it did improve, or at least delay the onset of the headache by a bit, but after the session I had the symptoms, so I don't know..

But I am open for suggestions to test this hypothesis. My "requirement" is that I'd still be able to return them later in case our project goes sideways - meaning no irreversable changes, no drilling, repainting and so on I am also open to buy additional stuff, as long as it is reasonable.

Best case scenario would be:
- first test the hypothesis with a DYI solution, no additional purchases, a proof of concept so to speak - if it fixes the problem or makes an improvement - I'd invest in a more permanent solution
- If that's not an option, I am open to test a different strap, but not sure if you can change it without damaging the headphones, or without voiding the warranty.

Is it doable? Do you have concrete ideas and recommendations to test?


Update:
Inspired by some 3D printed suspention bands I saw on the net, decided to try a fast proof of concept.
Basically I cut part of the elastic waistband from a pair of old shorts and attached it with small wires to the headstrap on both sides. A little experimentation with the length and I definitely feel a small improvement in comfort. I think it's not wide enough though, because after a while I start to feel a hotspot building on top. Listened about 40 Minutes on and off, but I am calling it for now because it is 3am...

 

[solderdude]

But first, let me get this right - you're saying, that clamp force, weight and ergonomics CAN cause severe tinnitus and headaches lasting for a few days?

Clamp force can cause listening fatigue and/or discomfort. Who knows what could trigger tinnitus in your case as you are having a history and good reason to have tinnitus.
The downside of the 6SE is the cheap headband they use which (for me in any case) presses on the sides of the head.
A 3D printed comfort strap works well against that issue but as I am 'follically challenged' the plastic became sweaty after a while.
For a permanent solution I might have glued some leather or cloth on the strap (the HE6SE was a loaner).

Instead of a towel I used a block of foam rubber with the HE400SE (same headband). Also silly looking but worked.

What about the ear inflamation?

You might have had it already (a little) but might have gotten worse when you sealed off the ear for a longer period.
This increases the temperature and humidity which might have made it worse ?

I hope it works for you as the HE6SE is a nice sounding headphone at that price.

 

[Metala]

An update from me. My hearing test is out - and luckily my hearing hasn't gotten worse since my last test 4 years ago. I also found out that I have significant 60dB hearing loss at 8kHz, consistent with the firecracker explosion. According to ChatGPT, such hearing loss may lead to sharp distorted high frequencies. My tinnitus frequency also "sounds" very similar to a 8k tone... so I guess everything comes into place.

As for the HE6SE, it already has a new very happy owner and I decided to try my luck with a cheap refurbished HE1000 Stealth directly from Hifiman. I brace for a disappointment, since my ears are still the same, but at least I have a 30 day return window.