HE6Se v2 + EF499 (as DAC) and Monolith THX 887, persistent headaches and tinnitus...

[Metala]

You are probably tired of reading posts from newbies struggling to "properly" drive the infamous HE6SE v2... but here we go again.

Short background story. I am a budget buyer with no previous hifi equipment apart from a 2yo Sundara that I powered with a Soundblaster G6.

I wanted an upgrade and bought a new HE6Se v2 for a very good price together with an Hifiman EF499. On paper at least, and according to some youtubers, the EF499 should be able to power the HE6SEs.
I received them and I was quite impressed. The headphones were quite bright though, and even harsh with some recordings, but with EQ they were quite good and could get loud enough even with a 6dB shelf. All in all, I like them a lot, never heard anything like them before.

BUT

Soon after, I started getting headaches and tinitus while listening to them, and some "experts" on reddit told me I need even more power to power them "properly" and eliminate the harshness, so I read some more reviews and claims from other users and decided to get a used Monolith THX 887, which I found for 140 Euro.

I started using the EF499 as a DAC and connected it to the THX 887 via the balanced out. On paper at least, I should have now roghly 50% more power, right? Maybe even more, because the EF499 outputs full balanced power to the THX?

The thing is, even with this new setup I don't hear much of a difference in dynamic range and I still get long lasting headaches if I listen to them for a few hours, even at low volumes. I have no idea what's going on, my old Sundara never caused me pain while listening to them, and that at much higher volume.

Now I have a dilemma and I hope some of you more experienced folks could help me resolve it. First of all, do you have an idea why I get headaches and tinitus from listening to the HE6SEs? I did listen to them quite loud at the beginning because I could hear more details but after the symptoms appear I significantly lowered the volume.

My options are:
Option 1: Buy yet another, third and more powerful amp and hope to make them work better, ideally fixing the issue that causes me the headaches and tinitus while listening to them.
Option 2: Cut my loses and give up, return the HE6Se and get my money back (It was a steal for 350 Euro and I have 90 days return window). I am stuck with both amps though.
Option 3: Do you have a different idea?

Thanks in advance!

 

[DVDdoug]

I have no idea why you're getting headaches unless you are listening too loud, or maybe it's something about comfort and how they fit. Temporary-occasional tinnitus is usually caused by listening too loud if it's related to the sound at all. I've got tinnitus and comes-and-goes and sometimes it's worse than others. Or maybe it never goes away completely but personally, it doesn't bother me.

If you're not getting distortion and it's going loud enough you don't need more power. More power doesn't do anything if you don't use it (unless you are currently pushing the amp into clipping/distortion).

Honestly, I don't hear much of a difference in dynamic range

I'm not sure what you're expecting. The program dynamics come from the recording . The dynamic range of the equipment is limited by noise on the quiet-end and clipping-distortion on the loud-end. Although clipping is a very bad kind of dynamic compression it's heard as distortion rather than as a loss of dynamic range. And background noise is simply heard as noise.

 

[RandomEar]

Agree with @DVDdoug . More power is useless. Tinnitus is likely a sign of listening too loud or that headphone has some specific peak or resonance which triggers your individual tinnitus. There's not much you can do about that except for turning down the volume or getting another headphone. The headache might be a result of or connected to the tinnitus, or it might be related to the fit of the headphone: Maybe there's a bit too much pressure on the pads or the headband. If you have alternate pads, try those. If you can adjust the tension of the headband, lower it.

But honestly: If it was me, I would not be motivated to fiddle around that much with a headphone which doesn't sound right to me to begin with.

 

[Metala]

Thanks @DVDdoug and @RandomEar

If you're not getting distortion and it's going loud enough you don't need more power.

This was also my understanding prior to dealing with this headphone. Then I found out in multiple reviews and forums, including here in this forum, that this notoriously insensitive planar somehow need tons of amperage to be driven well and that loudness itself is no indication of its proper functioning. Now, I have no technical know-how as to why this would be the case with this particular planar drive, but it looks like there's a consensus online that this is the case with people going as far as driving them on speaker amps (something that will surely finish my ears once and for all).

I hope some fellow HE6Se owners will join the discussion and provide more information.

But honestly: If it was me, I would not be motivated to fiddle around that much with a headphone which doesn't sound right to me to begin with.

This whole cope on my side is because I find them quite addictive even though it causes me pain to listen to them, and that's why I am still trying to make them "work". I'd definitely keep them, even with this sound if they didn't cause me headaches. I just want to explore my options and see if I can improve the situation.

About my symptoms, as I mentioned, the first time I tried them I got so euphoric that I did listen to them very loud for hours, they had such a clean sound, no distortion at all, and at the time of listening there was no pain, the problems started later as a fatigue and pain in my ears that transformed into multi day headache and tinnitus.
My guess is I overwhelmed my hearing/ brain, maybe caused some damage and inflammation that made me oversensitive to certain high frequencies. Does this sound plausible? Did you have similar experiences?

What I think I can do, while still in my return window, is to rest my hearing for a week and then try again. Meanwhile I'll have time to learn from this community and try to understand what's going on and find out if there's room for improvement or I'm simply chasing placebo gains while damaging my hearing.

 

[FrantzM]

This is (almost) my headphones system. I use a Topping D-10 Balanced ..

Conjectures: THis headphones is extremely clean. , the THD is low at all SPL levels:

This is a 114 dB , an unhealthy level an it was sustained... and, yes, the THX amp can allow it to reach those levels.

You could have been indulging in too vigorous SPL-wise listenings, and the consequences are usually TInnitus...

I suggest to reduce your levels levels to around 75~80 dB average.. this may help.

Hope you solve this problem , this headphones is one of the best around when EQ and properly driven.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

The thing is, even with this new setup I don't hear much of a difference in dynamic range and I still get long lasting headaches if I listen to them for a few hours, even at low volumes. I have no idea what's going on, my old Sundara never caused me pain while listening to them, and that at much higher volume.

High frequency peaks can cause this issue.
I had the same, without EQ very very few headphones were not causing ear pain/irritation.
Use EQ and put ton of time in fine tuning eq to iron out HF peaks.

Some headphones even after EQ just don't sound right in HF. HE6se v2 for me was one of them, I just couldn't get it to sound right.
Maybe I could but with like 30+ bands of peq? I don't see a point.

 

[RandomEar]

Thanks @DVDdoug and @RandomEar


This was also my understanding prior to dealing with this headphone. Then I found out in multiple reviews and forums, including here in this forum, that this notoriously insensitive planar somehow need tons of amperage to be driven well and that loudness itself is no indication of its proper functioning. Now, I have no technical know-how as to why this would be the case with this particular planar drive, but it looks like there's a consensus online that this is the case with people going as far as driving them on speaker amps (something that will surely finish my ears once and for all).

I hope some fellow HE6Se owners will join the discussion and provide more information.

The HE6se v2 is specced at 83.5 dB/mW and 50 Ohms. That would mean it requires 4.73 V and 94.5 mA to get to 110 dB. That's quite a bit for a headphone, but it's also not outrageous. There's no magic in there, it doesn't matter what people think it needs - physics is physics.

EDIT: Small correction to voltage/current numbers. Accidentally used 83 dB/mW instead of 83.5.

 

[Metala]

This is a 114 dB , an unhealthy level an it was sustained... and, yes, the THX amp can allow it to reach those levels.

I suggest to reduce your levels levels to around 75~80 dB average.. this may help.

Hope you solve this problem , this headphones is one of the best around when EQ and properly driven.

Thanks, FrantzM!

Yeah I am afraid I did some damage, hopefully not permanent.

Sorry for the stupid question, but... how do I know the dB levels I'm listening to? I have no display on either of the amp or dac and with such clean sound it is very easy to get overexcited and overdo it.

You mentioned also that you have (almost) the same system, does that mean that the THX 887 is in your opinion "enough" for the HE6Se and there's no need to chase even more power?

 

[Metala]

High frequency peaks can cause this issue.
I had the same, without EQ very very few headphones were not causing ear pain/irritation.
Use EQ and put ton of time in fine tuning eq to iron out HF peaks.

Some headphones even after EQ just don't sound right in HF. HE6se v2 for me was one of them, I just couldn't get it to sound right.
Maybe I could but with like 30+ bands of peq? I don't see a point.

I'm sorry you couldn't make the HE6Se work for you... Out of curiousity, what did you replace them with?

It sounds like I might also suffer from a similar problem. I do have some historical damage to my ears, after which some higher frequencies are distorted, especially in my left ear after an.. explosion.. I wonder if this plays a role.

 

[Metala]

The HE6se v2 is specced at 83.5 dB/mW and 50 Ohms. That would mean it requires 5.0 V and 100 mA to get to 110 dB. That's quite a bit for a headphone, but it's also not outrageous. There's no magic in there, it doesn't matter what people think it needs - physics is physics.

Thanks for clarifying. According to Amir's review here, their impendance is 64 Ohm, more than the advertised 50 Ohm (not sure if this changes the equation by much, but points to some potential quality controll issues).

I have a final weird question on the topic:
In the community, there's the claim that the total watts are not as important as the amps, and that's why a more powerful / expensive amp is required to unlock the full drive's potential. My basic understanding is that "watts = amps x volts" so I am confused why one part of the equation would make a bigger difference to a headphone when the total power requirement (watts) is sufficient.

Is there any merrit to this, maybe an use case where amps alone could make a bigger difference to a planar drive, or is it just the next misunderstood myth about this headphone?

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks, FrantzM!

Yeah I am afraid I did some damage, hopefully not permanent.

Sorry for the stupid question, but... how do I know the dB levels I'm listening to? I have no display on either of the amp or dac and with such clean sound it is very easy to get overexcited and overdo it.

You mentioned also that you have (almost) the same system, does that mean that the THX 887 is in your opinion "enough" for the HE6Se and there's no need to chase even more power?

Errata:
My headphones system:

Hifiman HE-6SEv2
Massdrop AAA THX 789, reviewed here
Topping D10B Balanced DAC Reviewed here

The Massdrop 789 is almost an identical copy of your Monoprice THX887. Both are among the most powerful and highest performances headphones amplifiers around: The upper echelon. Both are capable of >3 Watts, quite enough to drive the HE-6SEv2 to ear-damaging SPL levels and, the most dangerous thing , you may not realize how loud you are listening, because of the cleanliness of the reproduction: Those Headphones nor the amplifier will distort at those elevated levels ... usually distortion is a warning to back the volume a bit .

I have a miniDSP Ears that I have not used 4 times total, after more than 4 years ... There has to be cheaper ways, perhaps a smartphone App and some home-made contraption. People here will chime in for sure. You need ball-park figures.. not precise, to the micron, measurements. perhaps a smartphone free dB meter, plus some cardboard

 

[RandomEar]

Thanks for clarifying. According to Amir's review here, their impendance is 64 Ohm, more than the advertised 50 Ohm (not sure if this changes the equation by much, but points to some potential quality controll issues).

Amir measured the v1, not the v2. Not sure what differences exist between the v1 and v2 drivers. In any case, a higher impedance lowers the required current -> unproblematic.

 

[AryaStealth]

Option 2: Cut my loses and give up, return the HE6Se and get my money back (It was a steal for 350 Euro and I have 90 days return window). I am stuck with both amps though.

If you didn't have tinnitus before using these headphones I believe the damage to your ears has already happened and it is irreversible even if tinnitus goes away or becomes less pronounced/perceived with time. Usually this kind of headphones induced tinnitus (first time in your life) indicates at least 5db hearing sensitivity loss on some frequencies and in daily life you probably woudn't notice it much.
The headache on quiet volume may be related to the poorly designed headband, you can get Capra Audio Comfort Strap for he6se v2/he400se (costs $25) which transforms them into very comfortable headphones with a light clamping force. That way you can check on quiet volume if it was the headband that gave you headaches, and if you no longer have headaches with the comfort strap you can keep the headphones and listen to them only on quiet volume (no louder than normal conversation) for an hour or two a day. Anything louder or longer may cause futher damage to your ears long term because he6se v2 drivers have resonances that our brain can choose to ignore or not perceive as very loud.
I also liked he6se v2 with eq, never had any headaches with the capra audio strap, but one day, like you, I noticed a very light tinnitus in my right ear and stupidly ignored it. A few weeks later I was watching multiple tv episodes (spent around 7 hours with the headphone with perceivable average volume around 65db) and next day my right ear lost 5 to 10db in some crucial frequency ranges and believe me the outside world can sound extremely unpleasant and ugly afterwards when you have reached/accumulated 15-20db hearing loss. At this stage you wish you should have never touched any headphones in your life.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

I'm sorry you couldn't make the HE6Se work for you... Out of curiousity, what did you replace them with?

It sounds like I might also suffer from a similar problem. I do have some historical damage to my ears, after which some higher frequencies are distorted, especially in my left ear after an.. explosion.. I wonder if this plays a role.

Of course I cannot answer for you form what pain is coming.
Just sharing my experience.

As for replacing HE6, I had a lot of other headphones, some worked better some worse - I sold many expensive stuff because of many reasons.
One of the very best was DCA Stealth, but currently I'm using my old 2015 Audeze LCD-5 with new pads and new damping material (this new material helps a lot) that Audeze includes in their pads replacement kit and with PEQ I can get this LCD-2s to sound just phenomenal, not bright not dark just perfect balance without any harshness.

 

[Metala]

If you didn't have tinnitus before using these headphones I believe the damage to your ears has already happened and it is irreversible even if tinnitus goes away or becomes less pronounced/perceived with time. Usually this kind of headphones induced tinnitus (first time in your life) indicates at least 5db hearing sensitivity loss on some frequencies and in daily life you probably woudn't notice it much.
The headache on quiet volume may be related to the poorly designed headband, you can get Capra Audio Comfort Strap for he6se v2/he400se (costs $25) which transforms them into very comfortable headphones with a light clamping force. That way you can check on quiet volume if it was the headband that gave you headaches, and if you no longer have headaches with the comfort strap you can keep the headphones and listen to them only on quiet volume (no louder than normal conversation) for an hour or two a day. Anything louder or longer may cause futher damage to your ears long term because he6se v2 drivers have resonances that our brain can choose to ignore or not perceive as very loud.
I also liked he6se v2 with eq, never had any headaches with the capra audio strap, but one day, like you, I noticed a very light tinnitus in my right ear and stupidly ignored it. A few weeks later I was watching multiple tv episodes (spent around 7 hours with the headphone with perceivable average volume around 65db) and next day my right ear lost 5 to 10db in some crucial frequency ranges and believe me the outside world can sound extremely unpleasant and ugly afterwards when you have reached/accumulated 15-20db hearing loss. At this stage you wish you should have never touched any headphones in your life.

Thank you for the sobering talk about tinitus and hearing loss.

This is not my first rodeo. I suffer from chronic tinitus after an extremely loud metal concert 20 years ago. After that I underwent multiple rounds of steroids infusions in order to minimize the damage. I know I have some hearing loss, but it does not interfere with my day to day life, yet.
In time I learned to live with the tinitus and most days I don't notice it. When it comes back, it is because of stress or after a concert, which happens very rarely as I usually bring earplugs and try to be more careful.
This time with the HE6se I was caught off guard as I didn't feel any discomfort while listening loud. There was no distortion, only more details. Quite addicting feeling. It was after a few hours session that the headache and tinitus surfaced and I knew I fked up.

I arranged an appointment with an ENT specialist for next week to assess the damage and talk about this whole thing. Thanks again for replying and focusing on the hearing loss part, you may have saved some of what's remained from my already impacted hearing.

 

[Metala]

Of course I cannot answer for you form what pain is coming.
Just sharing my experience.

As for replacing HE6, I had a lot of other headphones, some worked better some worse - I sold many expensive stuff because of many reasons.
One of the very best was DCA Stealth, but currently I'm using my old 2015 Audeze LCD-5 with new pads and new damping material (this new material helps a lot) that Audeze includes in their pads replacement kit and with PEQ I can get this LCD-2s to sound just phenomenal, not bright not dark just perfect balance without any harshness.

Thanks! I already made an appointment with an ENT specialist so I'll have answers next week.

As for the recommendations, I see they are 3-5k sets and are currently out of my budget range. What made the HE6se very appealing was the exceptional price to performance ratio. I haven't heard many high end 1k+ headphones, but I've heard many 300-400 Euro sets and the HE6se in this range is unmatched. Lets hope this little experiment didn't cost me some of my hearing.

Again, thanks for taking the time to reply. Focusing the discussion away from the amp and towards the tinitus may prove to be more beneficial to me in the long term.

 

[Subob]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that potential driver flex (presumably only with DD headphones?) and interaction with different ear canals can cause some headphones to cause headaches for some users, regardless of volume. This is certainly the right forum to call BS on that or not, and I don't know whether it's true or not, so would be interested to hear what others here know.

What I do know as fact is that my wife recently bought a cheap pair of Soundcore headphones and they have gave her immediate headaches, no matter the use case. The old Hifiman Edition S that she had didn't give her headaches, but broke, hence the Soundcores. The iems I gave her to replace the Soundcores don't give her a headache either. Maybe it's just a headband fit issue? With iems, obviously that problem never arises.

In your position, I would just move those headphones on and try something else.

 

[Curupira]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that potential driver flex (presumably only with DD headphones?) and interaction with different ear canals can cause some headphones to cause headaches for some users, regardless of volume

Driver flex is only ever a problem with poorly vented IEMs, not full-size open headphones. Even then, the effect on sound itself is controversial.

Physically, the headaches can occur from clamp force and from contact points over time. The HE6SE is bad in both of those aspects, with it's weight and cheaply stuffed tiara.

Sound-wise, headaches will be mostly influenced by sensitive frequencies from the user's hearing. Most of those will be above 1khz (highs, mostly), and the worst offenders would be the frequencies that resonate with someone's hearing loss/tinnitus timbre. For myself, headphones/iems with peaks around 3.2khz and 4.5khz are hard to stand on higher volumes or without some elevated lower end to compensate because they make my tinnitus ring louder.

I'd advise OP to do a frequency sweep on squig.link's EQ page and find where the treble/midrange peaks are in his individual unit, and then try some High Q negative filters to compensate. From memory, the worst offenders on the HE6SE V2 I had were from 3khz, 6khz and 11khz, but it is imperative to to listen for yourself and try to look up the peaks because the 6SE line has great unit variance.

 

[solderdude]

First of all, do you have an idea why I get headaches and tinitus from listening to the HE6SEs? I did listen to them quite loud at the beginning because I could hear more details but after the symptoms appear I significantly lowered the volume.

listening fatigue can also come from a too high clamping force with pressure on the skull at certain points.
Tinnitus .... probably from listening too loud or a slight imbalance in treble between L and R ear when listening for a longer period (there can be several reasons that can trigger tinnitus).
Could also be the very slight treble emphasis (<5dB) but is not likely.

 

[Roland68]

You are probably tired of reading posts from newbies struggling to "properly" drive the infamous HE6SE v2... but here we go again.

Short background story. I am a budget buyer with no previous hifi equipment apart from a 2yo Sundara that I powered with a Soundblaster G6.

I wanted an upgrade and bought a new HE6Se v2 for a very good price together with an Hifiman EF499. On paper at least, and according to some youtubers, the EF499 should be able to power the HE6SEs.
I received them and I was quite impressed. The headphones were quite bright though, and even harsh with some recordings, but with EQ they were quite good and could get loud enough even with a 6dB shelf. All in all, I like them a lot, never heard anything like them before.

BUT

Soon after, I started getting headaches and tinitus while listening to them, and some "experts" on reddit told me I need even more power to power them "properly" and eliminate the harshness, so I read some more reviews and claims from other users and decided to get a used Monolith THX 887, which I found for 140 Euro.

I started using the EF499 as a DAC and connected it to the THX 887 via the balanced out. On paper at least, I should have now roghly 50% more power, right? Maybe even more, because the EF499 outputs full balanced power to the THX?

The thing is, even with this new setup I don't hear much of a difference in dynamic range and I still get long lasting headaches if I listen to them for a few hours, even at low volumes. I have no idea what's going on, my old Sundara never caused me pain while listening to them, and that at much higher volume.

Now I have a dilemma and I hope some of you more experienced folks could help me resolve it. First of all, do you have an idea why I get headaches and tinitus from listening to the HE6SEs? I did listen to them quite loud at the beginning because I could hear more details but after the symptoms appear I significantly lowered the volume.

My options are:
Option 1: Buy yet another, third and more powerful amp and hope to make them work better, ideally fixing the issue that causes me the headaches and tinitus while listening to them.
Option 2: Cut my loses and give up, return the HE6Se and get my money back (It was a steal for 350 Euro and I have 90 days return window). I am stuck with both amps though.
Option 3: Do you have a different idea?

Thanks in advance!

I would first check the source of the headaches.
Basically, it could be a mechanical/fit issue with the headphones. I found the headband on the HE6se V2 uncomfortable, so I switched to a headband with an additional headband, similar to the Sundara.

The second problem could indeed be related to the sound. But it doesn't necessarily have to be the HE6se V2.
Aside from the fact that some music and some speakers/systems give me headaches, I once had an unpleasant experience with a DAC I wanted to buy.
I was able to distinguish this DAC from any other DAC at any time, as I got a headache after about 30 seconds of it running.

You could test the THX 887 together with the HE6se V2 on a different source, such as your Soundblaster G6. After that, you should be able to narrow down whether the HE6Se v2 or the EF499 is the problem.