HDMI ARC on WiiM Ultra causing analog outputs to stay “active” (Hypex FA252 never enters auto-sleep)

[Murkas]

OK, but to me some ground issue seems like the most likely culprit of this. Wiim Ultra converts the incoming HDMI/ARC in a separate chip EP950E to I2S and feeds this to the Linkplay ARM SoC module. If the software in wiim is switched to other source, I do not see how any incoming signal on one of the SoC I2S interfaces which is not being read by the software could leak into the output digital signal for the built-in DACs. However a ground current could create a noise voltage on the analog lines to the amp modules. Both TV and the amps are class I, IMO creating a ground loop. I would suggest to do a standard ground loop diagnosis - e.g. carefully disconnecting (just for testing) the PE wire of one of the devices to break the loop to see what happens.

Thanks, I tried this now — lifted ground on all devices in the chain, and the amps still don’t enter auto-sleep when HDMI is connected to the TV.
So it doesn’t seem to be a ground-loop issue.

 

[tw99]

Does the problem go away if you switch the TV off ? If so, and in the absence of other solutions, maybe you could use a smart plug and a bit of home automation to turn the TV off at the wall when appropriate. This would be easy to do with Home Assistant for example.

 

[Soniclife]

As you have 2 ultras what happens if you connect hdmi to one, then send that over the network to the other one which is connected to your amp? I'm sure this will work ok, so I'm not sure what it would prove.

 

[Murkas]

As you have 2 ultras what happens if you connect hdmi to one, then send that over the network to the other one which is connected to your amp? I'm sure this will work ok, so I'm not sure what it would prove.

That is an "thinking outside the box idea"

 

[Murkas]

Does the problem go away if you switch the TV off ? If so, and in the absence of other solutions, maybe you could use a smart plug and a bit of home automation to turn the TV off at the wall when appropriate. This would be easy to do with Home Assistant for example.

I have been thinking do it the other way around - measuring power from the Wiim and have two other plugs for the speakers that turns on when the Wiim is turned on, via my Homey. But that solution is probably my last resort..

 

[phofman]

Re-reading your description - IMO there may be some induced/capacitive loop voltages being created on the hypex inputs when the TV is connected. Since you tried disconnecting the PE wire - maybe there are capacitively-coupled currents via the EMI Y capacitors of the switched power supplies, not the galvanically-coupled ones via PE wires. I would try connecting the amps not via the single-ended cinches on both sides, but via the XLRs of the amps - using the standard cinch -> XLR scheme with proper balanced cable (i.e. the hot/cold split on the source cinch side).

 

[Murkas]

Re-reading your description - IMO there may be some induced/capacitive loop voltages being created on the hypex inputs when the TV is connected. Since you tried disconnecting the PE wire - maybe there are capacitively-coupled currents via the EMI Y capacitors of the switched power supplies, not the galvanically-coupled ones via PE wires. I would try connecting the amps not via the single-ended cinches on both sides, but via the XLRs of the amps - using the standard cinch -> XLR scheme with proper balanced cable (i.e. the hot/cold split on the source cinch side).

This is a good idea! Will be tested! Thanks!

 

[Devnull]

I really doubt this is a noise or ground issue. Odds are this is the Ultra waking up during the HDMI handshake when the TV is on. HDMI will handshake even when CEC is turned off. Wiim could probably fix this in a firmware update.

Try hooking the Ultra up to a different TV and see what happens.

 

[somebodyelse]

Is there a reason you're not using coax or optical between the Wiim and the Fusion Amp? That should sidestep analog noise issues, as well as saving a pair of conversion steps. I don't think the coax is isolated (don't remember seeing a pulse transformer in the Ultra teardown video, and the receive end doesn't usually have one) so I suppose there's still an offchance of ground currents affecting the analog, but the optical can't have that issue.

 

[Murkas]

Is there a reason you're not using coax or optical between the Wiim and the Fusion Amp? That should sidestep analog noise issues, as well as saving a pair of conversion steps. I don't think the coax is isolated (don't remember seeing a pulse transformer in the Ultra teardown video, and the receive end doesn't usually have one) so I suppose there's still an offchance of ground currents affecting the analog, but the optical can't have that issue.

Thanks! Vill look into this as well. Need to buy longer optical cables and a splitter for this.

 

[Murkas]

Update:
- I have now received and tested an optical HDMI cable. That didn’t solve it - same issue.
- I now tried to hook one of the speakers up with optical toslink, and that seems to work, but with optical the Hypex FA252 modules does not wake up.

This seems to be cursed. Any suggestions?

 

[somebodyelse]

Your FA252 is probably configured for ultra-low power mode where only analog inputs are scanned for power-up. You need to change it to low power mode to scan digital inputs too (unless something changed in a more recent version of the Fusion Manual!)

 

[Murkas]

Your FA252 is probably configured for ultra-low power mode where only analog inputs are scanned for power-up. You need to change it to low power mode to scan digital inputs too (unless something changed in a more recent version of the Fusion Manual!)

Thanks! This works!!

 

[Murkas]

Update: speakers are now connected with Toslink and that works.
However, now I have connected my sub (Hypex FA251 + Seas L26RO4Y) via rca and it suffers from the same problem via sub-out - module never goes to sleep. This is really annoying …
Will probably relocate the sub to another location in the same room and use a Rel HT-Air MK2 for wireless connection. I really hope that it will work.

 

[thematttk]

Are you sure the Wiim is actually going into standby?

Seeing that you have a Samsung Frame TV, the Wiim may not actually be going into standby when this TV is in Art Mode, for example.

 

[Murkas]

Are you sure the Wiim is actually going into standby?

Seeing that you have a Samsung Frame TV, the Wiim may not actually be going into standby when this TV is in Art Mode, for example.

Yes, as it works with optical out. Otherwise it would have been the same experience there.

 

[Soniclife]

Yes, as it works with optical out. Otherwise it would have been the same experience there.

Not necessarily, the downstream device probably won't care about the difference between standby and silence.

 

[Murkas]

Not necessarily, the downstream device probably won't care about the difference between standby and silence.

The downstream device is the Hypex FA252. It uses an auto-sleep circuit that monitors the input signal level, and it can be configured in four sensitivity steps. The same logic applies regardless of whether the input is analog or digital. With HDMI connected, none of the sensitivity settings allow the amps to enter auto-sleep — even when no audio is playing.

 

[thematttk]

1. Are the Amps not properly going into auto-sleep from an analog audio source vs digital?
2. Or is the Wiim not going into standby based on the digital input (HDMI eARC)?

You seem to be focused on #1, but have you cancelled out the posibility of #2?
If you're connected via HDMI eARC from TV <--> Wiim, and analog RCA cables from Wiim <--> Amps, then what happens if you completely kill power to the TV (unplug from wall)? The Frame TVs are kind of odd in terms of powering down. There's a way to completely turn them off and a way to put them in a low-power standby and/or Art mode, that might not be triggering the Wiim to go into standby.

What happens if you completely kill power to both TV and Wiim?

 

[Murkas]

To clarify — the WiiM does go into standby. The amps do not.

Analog RCA from WiiM → Hypex FA252
TV: Standby / Art Mode
WiiM: Enters standby automatically after ~5 minutes of silence
Hypex FA252: Does NOT enter auto-sleep

Optical (Toslink) from WiiM → Hypex FA252
TV: Standby / Art Mode
WiiM: Enters standby automatically after ~5 minutes of silence
Hypex FA252: Does enter auto-sleep normally

If I disconnect the HDMI cable between the TV and the WiiM, the Hypex modules power down as expected (even when using the analog outputs).

So the issue is not WiiM standby behavior — it appears that having HDMI connected introduces just enough residual activity on the analog outputs to prevent the FA252 auto-sleep circuit from triggering.