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HDMI 2.1 AVR + AMP Dilemma

Mitch16

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Hello,

I am hoping for some guidance and recommendations on which receiver I should purchase to complete my home theater setup - expected mix is 70% movies/TV/gaming and 30% music. I am installing a 7.2.4 system using the following:

Speakers: Revel F206s, Revel C205, Revel W553L x4 for surrounds, RSL C34E x 4 for in-ceiling Atmos
Subs: Dual PSA TV1812s

I am a gamer so having an AVR that has a HDMI 2.1 compatible port is a must. I was originally planning to buy the Denon x6700h and be done with it, but after reading of some issues that model had with a capacitor affecting performance on the ASR forum the other night, I am debating whether that is my best option. Which got me thinking about whether it would make more sense to go with a combination of a Denon x3700h (or Denon x4700h if Auro 3D and +20 watts per channel is worth $?) and then add on an amplifier. In this setup, does it make the most sense to run the two towers through the amplifier since they consume the most power of my speakers?

Am I correct in my understanding that I can run all 11 channels through the x3700h/x4700h, power 9 channels through the AVR, and 2 channels through the amp connected through the preout on AVR? Is there any kind of sound degradation through using the preout to amp connection rather than all through AVR? Also, am I correct that any audio formats supported by the AVR would function the same in this setup?

With the $ I would save by going down from the Denon 6700 to the 3700/4700, I could afford to amp more than 2 channels if it made sense. My goal is to make sure the speakers have all the power they need, but not abundantly more than they need. The Emotiva BasX A-300 is a 2 channel amp that I looked at. Definitely open to recommendations on AMPs if that is the recommended setup and how many channels you'd recommend powering through amp vs AVR.

For reference, the speakers are 8 ohms and the F206 recommended amp power is 50-200, C205 is 50-120, W553L is 10-150, and C34e is 25-150.

Please help me decide the best way to power my system while meeting my need for HDMI 2.1.

Thank you!

Mitch
 

Beershaun

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You can definitely do things in multiple steps. Start with the Denon only first. It seems like getting the new generation avrs are going to be what you want for the gaming screen sync feature.
 
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Mitch16

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Well to power the 11 channels I will either need to decide on the x6700h or get the 3700/4700 + AMP at the same time. So I will have to decide on which AVR to get - in other words, if I went with the 6700 I wouldn't need the AMP unless for some reason it didn't have enough power, which I'm not expecting to be the case.
 

Beershaun

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The new denons have a front left right amp assign mode so you can use a 2ch amp for your fronts and the internals for the rest. That would allow you to step down to the 3700 I believ3.

there is a video from audioholics posted in the x6700 thread where the Denton marketi folks walk the host through those different scenarios. It’s about an hour long but really helps in understanding the difference between the models and which will fit your needs. It was very educational for me.
 
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Mitch16

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The new denons have a front left right amp assign mode so you can use a 2ch amp for your fronts and the internals for the rest. That would allow you to step down to the 3700 I believ3.

there is a video from audioholics posted in the x6700 thread where the Denton marketi folks walk the host through those different scenarios. It’s about an hour long but really helps in understanding the difference between the models and which will fit your needs. It was very educational for me.

Thanks - I will definitely have to check that video out as I want to make sure I buy the right model that fits my needs since so few HDMI 2.1 AVR options right now.
 

Beershaun

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Here is the link to the interview/press event for the 2020 Denons.
 

Racheski

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Hello,

I am hoping for some guidance and recommendations on which receiver I should purchase to complete my home theater setup - expected mix is 70% movies/TV/gaming and 30% music. I am installing a 7.2.4 system using the following:

Speakers: Revel F206s, Revel C205, Revel W553L x4 for surrounds, RSL C34E x 4 for in-ceiling Atmos
Subs: Dual PSA TV1812s

I am a gamer so having an AVR that has a HDMI 2.1 compatible port is a must. I was originally planning to buy the Denon x6700h and be done with it, but after reading of some issues that model had with a capacitor affecting performance on the ASR forum the other night, I am debating whether that is my best option. Which got me thinking about whether it would make more sense to go with a combination of a Denon x3700h (or Denon x4700h if Auro 3D and +20 watts per channel is worth $?) and then add on an amplifier. In this setup, does it make the most sense to run the two towers through the amplifier since they consume the most power of my speakers?

Am I correct in my understanding that I can run all 11 channels through the x3700h/x4700h, power 9 channels through the AVR, and 2 channels through the amp connected through the preout on AVR? Is there any kind of sound degradation through using the preout to amp connection rather than all through AVR? Also, am I correct that any audio formats supported by the AVR would function the same in this setup?

With the $ I would save by going down from the Denon 6700 to the 3700/4700, I could afford to amp more than 2 channels if it made sense. My goal is to make sure the speakers have all the power they need, but not abundantly more than they need. The Emotiva BasX A-300 is a 2 channel amp that I looked at. Definitely open to recommendations on AMPs if that is the recommended setup and how many channels you'd recommend powering through amp vs AVR.

For reference, the speakers are 8 ohms and the F206 recommended amp power is 50-200, C205 is 50-120, W553L is 10-150, and C34e is 25-150.

Please help me decide the best way to power my system while meeting my need for HDMI 2.1.

Thank you!

Mitch
What TV are you going to rock? Are you going to game off a console or a PC? Just curious.
 
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Mitch16

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What TV are you going to rock? Are you going to game off a console or a PC? Just curious.

Planning to go with a 77" OLED - most likely LG CX or C9 if still available. I prefer a dark room for movies so OLED fits what I'm looking for. I have a 55" LG B7 in another room now. PS4 Pro gaming and eventually will pick up a PS5.
 

Racheski

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Planning to go with a 77" OLED - most likely LG CX or C9 if still available. I prefer a dark room for movies so OLED fits what I'm looking for. I have a 55" LG B7 in another room now. PS4 Pro gaming and eventually will pick up a PS5.
Can I come over? :) Let us know how it all works out because I'm interested in this new 120Hz/4k OLED gaming experience.
 
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Mitch16

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Here is the link to the interview/press event for the 2020 Denons.

Thanks - watched a good portion of this video and there is a lot of great info in it. I see where I can select the front L/R for pre outs (video shows 13.1 for the 6700, assuming same with 11.1 for 3700), but my question is how many channel amp would I need? Is one set of the heights still going to need external amplification even if I select the front L/R as pre out? That would mean I'd need to buy a 4+ channel amp rather than a 2 or 3 channel to suffice for just running the two tower speakers through the external amp and then running center and all surrounds and heights through AVR.
 

Trouble Maker

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This is just my opinion (but I'lll back it up with data), if the only reason to go from the 3700➡6700 is the extra 2 channels of amplification, go with the 3700. You can buy a hell of a 2 channel amp for $1300 that combined with the 3700 would blow the 6700 out of the water from a power standpoint.

The cost is much higher and you only get a little more power.

https://usa.denon.com/en-us/shop/receivers/avrx3700h
Go to Specs, under Specifications and General specs.
1596519075330.png

By Denons own spec you maybe get 15%~30% more power, maybe ~100 watts more power supply?

By airmrm's test towards the end he does a 1-5 channels driven test.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/denon-avr-x3700h-avr-review.15031/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...non-avr-x6700h-home-theater-avr-review.14902/
There really seems to be very little extra power in the 6700.
3700 @ 5 channels = 500 watts total
6700 @ 5 channels ~ 575 watts total (just guessing 115 watts/channel being liberal, it might be closer to 110/channel).
These are really similar to the total power numbers for 4 ohm 2 channel peak power too.

I'm guessing there is a lot more 'feature content' in the 6700, so it just depends on how much that is worth to you.
 
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Trouble Maker

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Thanks - watched a good portion of this video and there is a lot of great info in it. I see where I can select the front L/R for pre outs (video shows 13.1 for the 6700, assuming same with 11.1 for 3700), but my question is how many channel amp would I need? Is one set of the heights still going to need external amplification even if I select the front L/R as pre out? That would mean I'd need to buy a 4+ channel amp rather than a 2 or 3 channel to suffice for just running the two tower speakers through the external amp and then running center and all surrounds and heights through AVR.

You 'reassign' the FR/FL amp to 2 other channels (heights or surounds) then use pre-out and external amplification for FR/FL. so you only need 2 more channels of amplification and you can use those for the fronts where they will be put to best use.

The manual directly on Denon's site doesn't seem to be working (for me), so I'll quote from the one on Crutchfield.
https://pdf.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageBank/v20200717164400/Manuals/033/033AVX3700.PDF

Edit: I see now that the manual does now show it well, this site does. This is for the x4400, but my understanding is that it works the same for x3600 and up (e.g. x3700) as well
http://4khometheaterreview.com/2018/09/21/how-to-setup-11-channel-atmos-on-denon-avr-x4400h/
1596522749478.png
 

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Mitch16

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You 'reassign' the FR/FL amp to 2 other channels (heights or surounds) then use pre-out and external amplification for FR/FL. so you only need 2 more channels of amplification and you can use those for the fronts where they will be put to best use.

The manual directly on Denon's site doesn't seem to be working (for me), so I'll quote from the one on Crutchfield.
https://pdf.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageBank/v20200717164400/Manuals/033/033AVX3700.PDF

Edit: I see now that the manual does now show it well, this site does. This is for the x4400, but my understanding is that it works the same for x3600 and up (e.g. x3700) as well
http://4khometheaterreview.com/2018/09/21/how-to-setup-11-channel-atmos-on-denon-avr-x4400h/
View attachment 76571


Thank you - your two posts were very helpful. A few follow-up questions:

1) If I use the fronts for my pre out and want to listen to music in 2 channel mode using the towers, is it safe to assume I can set it up to have the 2 channel run through the pre out as well?

2) When I reassign the FR/FL amp to a pair of the height speakers, will I still wire those height speakers through their respective terminals (i.e. no wiring going into FR/FL terminals on the AVR) and then the AVR will reallocate the unused amp?

3) My two subwoofers are pretty big (960 RMS each) - since these will be powered by wall plugs, any concerns on their performance being affected by 3700 vs 6700?

4) When I think about running the 2 towers through pre out and taking their power consumption away from the AVR, for the remaining 9 channels that I am powering with the 3700, is it correct that the AVR will dedicate power to each channel based on the demand from that channel at that time up to the channel limit? Meaning, expectation is that rarely all channels will be outputting sound, so when I see the 5 channel output of the 3700 at 100 WPC and project that out over my center and 4 surrounds and their recommended amp power from my first post, I'm thinking there is sufficient power within the 3700 to handle these + 4 Atmos when they engage.

I will have the AVR and amp in an A/V closet on a stand so the looks difference between the models doesn't matter to me and I was told that Auro 3D upgrade to 4700 has limited content in US that wouldn't be covered by Dolby Atmos, so as long as I feel comfortable with having enough power paired with a strong 2 channel amp to run the 11 channels I'm thinking this is the way to go.

Thanks!
 
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Mitch16

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As an update, I am planning to purchase the Denon x4700 as my AVR, but still trying to decide on a 2 channel external amp to run my Revel F206 L/R channels through. Any recommendations for a good match for these speakers for a 2 channel power amp?

I've been recommended looking at the Marantz MM7025. Also looked into Parasound....hoping that the forum members can give me some guidance and recommendations?
 

Dj7675

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As an update, I am planning to purchase the Denon x4700 as my AVR, but still trying to decide on a 2 channel external amp to run my Revel F206 L/R channels through. Any recommendations for a good match for these speakers for a 2 channel power amp?

I've been recommended looking at the Marantz MM7025. Also looked into Parasound....hoping that the forum members can give me some guidance and recommendations?
You might consider one of the hypex models like something based on the NC252 module. Something from Audiophonics or March Audio would fit the bill.
 

Trouble Maker

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I think the power output results in the 3700/4700/6700/8500 test show that there isn't a ton more power in any of the higher ones.
Overall power is limited by the power supply. Total capable power out seems like it might go from 500>650 watts as you step through the ranks per testing here (5 channels drive test). So if the only reason to get the higher one is power, it's not worth it. You are much better off doing a separate amp like you are doing. On the other hand if you want/need any of the features, that's another story. I want 3 zones, but might be able to get away with 2 total zones by grouping the Living/Dining and back deck. So my debate is 3x00 or 4x00, but I don't want to spend 4700 money so I might be looking at 4500 vs 3700.

I can't imagine many situations where that power level won't be enough.
4700=5xx watts, let's just say 540 which is halfway between the 3700 and 6700 since I couldn't find the actual number
March P252=300 watts (at 8 ohms)
Two subs = '960 watts' X 2
2,760 watts of total power.
I imagine you would have to have some combination of big room, hungry speakers and want for high SPLs for that to not be enough.

I kind of wonder if you could just get whatever one has the features you want, try it without an external amp and see if it's enough?
Not enough, then buy amp. But if it's enough and you didn't need to buy the external amp but you did, that's just wasted money.

To answer definitively, we would need more details about room size, speakers, usual listening level... and someone else who has the know how to accurately calculate it. ;)
 
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Mitch16

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I think the power output results in the 3700/4700/6700/8500 test show that there isn't a ton more power in any of the higher ones.
Overall power is limited by the power supply. Total capable power out seems like it might go from 500>650 watts as you step through the ranks per testing here (5 channels drive test). So if the only reason to get the higher one is power, it's not worth it. You are much better off doing a separate amp like you are doing. On the other hand if you want/need any of the features, that's another story. I want 3 zones, but might be able to get away with 2 total zones by grouping the Living/Dining and back deck. So my debate is 3x00 or 4x00, but I don't want to spend 4700 money so I might be looking at 4500 vs 3700.

I can't imagine many situations where that power level won't be enough.
4700=5xx watts, let's just say 540 which is halfway between the 3700 and 6700 since I couldn't find the actual number
March P252=300 watts (at 8 ohms)
Two subs = '960 watts' X 2
2,760 watts of total power.
I imagine you would have to have some combination of big room, hungry speakers and want for high SPLs for that to not be enough.

I kind of wonder if you could just get whatever one has the features you want, try it without an external amp and see if it's enough?
Not enough, then buy amp. But if it's enough and you didn't need to buy the external amp but you did, that's just wasted money.

To answer definitively, we would need more details about room size, speakers, usual listening level... and someone else who has the know how to accurately calculate it. ;)


I agree that especially with externally powering the F206's, that either the 3700 or 4700 would have sufficient power for the rest of the channels. The reasons I was considering the 4700 over 3700 are: 1) Availability - dealer I bought speakers from has 4700 in stock, but not 3700 (he's able to give a discount) 2) Dealer explained that the sound processing is better on the 4700 vs 3700 3) Additional power headroom in 4700 vs 3700

The reason I am looking to include an external amp is I am running a 7.2.4 system and these models only have 9 powered channels so need to power 2 through external. I will want to listen to music in 2 channel (with subs) so want to make sure I'm not shortchanging the F206's.

The total system is:

F206 towers, C205 center, W553L x 4 side and rear surrounds, RSL C34e x 4 Atmos speakers, PSA TV1812 x 2 subwoofers

For listening level, I will usually listen below reference levels - think more like moderately loud, but want to be able to crank it up when watching certain movies and music when family isn't sleeping :).

We will be sitting about 10-11' away from the screen and the room size is roughly 29' x 19' x 8', but then there is an open stretch when you turn the corner that is another 29' x 12'. See attached picture for reference.
 

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Mitch16

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Budget?

The Audiophonics LPA-S400ET is pretty nice. The Benchmark AHB2 is even better. The Audiophonics MPA-S250NC is worse, but cheaper.

Realistically, I am looking to spend < $700 on a 2 channel power amp - was priced out a Rotel 1552 MKII for < $1,000 and Marantz MM7025 < $700. Just having a hard time spending much more than that on top of the AVR at ~$1,500. The main reason for going down from Denon 6700 to 3700/4700 was to save $ by pairing those models with a 2 channel amp and with the belief I'd get a better overall setup by going that route.
 
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