HD6XX bass

[A Surfer]

Why are you acting as if the worst ones are common?. Go google Etymotic data sheet that comes with all ER4SR's you'll find 0.2 ~ 0.55% common, The ER4SR 0.6% at 100db not 1% which to me sounds like margin of error on that THD chart.

Go argue somewhere else i don't care.

Dude, you need to read more carefully and respond in kind. Where did I make such a claim? I simply asked you how do you know that it wasn't actually the case? This isn't a personal attack on you. I have seen people get so identified with their gear that they get really defensive if others critique it. Life is short, gear isn't who we are.

And for the record, your responses indicate that you do care, very much so.

 

[half_dog]

I think I was too aggressive, writing can lead to misunderstanding even more english not being my native language. AKG proposal is interesting, but it seems my problem is related to distortion only. Indeed I've appreciated the bass from K361, K371's was too much some time.

About distortion, K182 and others headphones which do not follow Harman target curve but have a similar distortion peak, they sounded unnatural too even though some of them didn't have treble emphasis.

I talked about AKG just because we are discussing about (HD650) distortion and it was my last experience related to this. It seems like a recurring thing coming from them specifically. Independent of model concept.

Anyway, this AKG dilemma was just to compare the distortions levels and comment that its perception is relative. I believe a lot of people enjoyed K361 and K371 despite this. "Just not for me" either

 

[solderdude]

That's the weird thing. I can truthfully recommend it to people for what it does. I also post what I didn't like, maybe that is helpful to people. They might not find important what I find important.
Good headphone but has aspects that made me decide to sell it as I have ones that have better properties to me and tonal balance is the easiest to correct.
The K371, in tonal balance, sounded extremely close to the target I EQ to as well. Just a little less subbass boost for me. It was 'fun' at first listen but a little to over the top for me. EQing to Harman also is a little over the top for me so that seems logical.
Funnily enough a 'flat line' on my completely flawed and incorrect cheap rig is what I go for and sound good to me.
Here's how I measure the K371:

You can see that the lower bass is a few dB above my personal 'target' but otherwise is very balanced with a bit of weirdness in the treble.
The 1k-5k part may be represented a bit to low in the plot. No biggie when you know this is the case.

 

[half_dog]

(It seems we have a similar taste for sub bass). I got your point and I agree they are nice headphones (disregarding their price in my country) for what they offer. This distortion thing is just for me, as I told, many folks may enjoy them.

A matter of fact, I can't be conclusive if I like or not the Harman target (with less subbass boost); I've tried to EQ the HD650, but can't say if it was done right. But even HD650 EQed, its highs didn't bother me.

Usually when someone asks for recommendations, first I try to understand their taste and, if possible, introduce them some headphones with different tonal balances. After that I feel safer to give them a "direction" or suggest models that follow their tastes. If their taste fits Harman curve, Harman curve will be the choice

Note: I'm in the group of people who was (is) helped by your work. In fact this inspired me to start to measure things...
Note 2: I had a Q701 some time ago and I sold it because of its highs and K371's high's reminded me the sensation of it not being "correct" - I'm not saying they are equal. Maybe I'm the problem haha

 

[half_dog]

@solderdude! I know you already have done hundreds of measurements and tests with the HD650, but these days I was playing with some mods and this simple one really surprised me. Just put a piece of foam covering the vent driver under the grill and it's done. At the measurements it decreased distortion and the bass hump around 1.8 to 2dB without decreasing the sub-bass in this region - I'm not complete sure if my rig is reliable enough to claim it. This give me an impression of cleaner bass and sound overall reminding a little Moondrop Starfield but without its sub-bass. This mod seems to reach something similar to the complex and irreversible KISS mod.

About the pics: although the headband being from HD600, the actual driver are from HD650 (2017).
Foam dimension: 70x29x17mm - I cut it from a worn HD600 pad
(I'm almost sure that's not new for you but I'd like to share this )

 

[solderdude]

yes, covering the rear of the driver with the right amount of damping, which can be done with various materials that will restrict airflow a bit, will reduce the midbass hump. It won't affect bass extension and won't affect higher frequencies.
Everything in front of the driver affects highs, everything in the rear affects midbass hump.
You can make it closer to HD600 in tonal balance this way.
Only applying the right amount of damping in the plastic round part of the magnet holder should lead to the same results and is more visually pleasing.
Removing the rear grill is easy and experiments can be fully reversible as long as one isn't removing the plastic surrounding the magnet.
To get get more midbass hump you can lower the amount of foam in the driver magnet hole.
To get less midbass hump you need to increase the amount of damping.
When you overdo it ... bye bye lows.

The HD650 was developed because folks complained about the HD600 to have too little of it. They got more warmth instead.
The gap between HD600 and HD650 tonality became a bit less over the years.

 

[half_dog]

Everything in front of the driver affects highs, everything in the rear affects midbass hump.

This! I already known about it, but I haven't gotten an optimal damping. In fact I was trying to increase only its sub-bass without eq. But I haven't realized it has enough sub-bass, the problem is this is "masked" by the mid hump - another way to play with its sound is to modify how much leak between the rear and front of the driver.

The gap between HD600 and HD650 tonality became a bit less over the years.

Yep, yep. Until a few days ago I had a HD600 (2013) which its measurements were pretty similar to both HD650 I own - the biggest difference's the hump.

You can make it closer to HD600 in tonal balance this way.

I always missed some "weight" at HD600's sub-bass region, something that stock HD650 was a little better, but I wanted just a little more. I'm talking about it because before selling the HD600 I spent a few days listenning to modded HD650 and stock HD600 (both with new pads - from Sennheiser this time haha). By the measurements both were quite closer to each other, just 0.5 ~ 0.8dB at 20Hz and 0.3dB at 100Hz for modded HD650, but this stills "hitting" considerably harder at sub-bass even with the mod, but now with more focused and a cleaner sound as HD600's - the hump at stock HD650 gives me a perception of some masking over mids and apparently over sub-bass.
I don't know if I'm explaing it right (sorry for my english). I wasn't looking for HD600 tonal balance exactly.

Only applying the right amount of damping in the plastic round part of the magnet holder should lead to the same results and is more visually pleasing.

Anyway, I'm happy with how my HD650 is sounding. It seems I found the right amount of damping. To conclude, talking about aesthetics, I'm leaving this that way because reminds me a little the Beyers - and doesn't bother me. But yep, it may looks better with a more discrete material covering the plastic surrounding.

Thanks again for your inputs

 

[KeithPhantom]

the hump at stock HD650 gives me a perception of some masking over mids and apparently over sub-bass.

For my, the masking actually happened both in the lows and highs. From memory, my HD 650 was a headphone I didn't like the amount of "detail" it offered. The HD 600 is another story, being really detailed and sounding "as real as it can get" to my ears. Guitars finally sound like the stringed instruments they are, the same with pianos. Their tonal balance is supreme, easily making me repeat sections of some songs for sounding "too real".
The HD 650 in my opinion, was a bit too warm, and this affected the overall tonal balance. They never sounded real, but never were annoying.

 

[half_dog]

The first time I've listened both headphones side to side around 2013 it gave me the same impression, that's why I chose the HD600 at that time. Some years ago HD650 was really dark as @solderdude said and showed here (2014 version) https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/headphones/measurements/brands-s-se/hd650/ now they are closer to each other and today I prefer the HD650 (with this mod is even better haha...).

 

[Robin L]

Haven't read the rest of this thread. I've got 6XX headphones and the very capable Topping L30 headphone amp. When I listen to the Drop headphones, I usually have APO eq in place:

High pass filter, corner frequency 17 Hz, Q 1.0
High pass filter, corner frequency 17 Hz, Q 1.5
Peaking filter, center frequency 150 Hz, Gain -2.3 dB, Q 0.7
Peaking filter, center frequency 2,700 Hz, Gain 2.0 dB, Q 1.0
Peaking filter, center frequency 20,000 Hz Gain 2.5, dB Q 0.1
Low pass filter, corner frequency 21,000 Hz Q 1.0
Preamp: -5.0 dB

This lifts the midbass, drops the level of the upper bass and lower midrange, increases treble as well. If your happy with the treble, you can just use the two high-pass filters and the first peaking filter.

 

[half_dog]

I've had tested some EQ's but my goal at beginning was to increase its sub-bass without EQ because I use it in different gears - I would have to EQ each gear and some of then has very limited EQ options. But now, with this mod it makes me realize HD650 has a nice sub-bass but it was masked by its own "hump" around 100Hz... Anway, thanks for your input (I'm going to save it to test later).

 

[chrispdx]

Admittedly I put in an order for IFI Zen Can Signature and will leave impressions when it arrives...mid-November.

Wonder what you thought of the iFi Zen CAN Signature with its dedicated HD6XX/650 button?

 

[AdamG]

Wonder what you thought of the iFi Zen CAN Signature with its dedicated HD6XX/650 button?

Welcome Aboard @chrispdx.

 

[DavidS]

Haven't read the rest of this thread. I've got 6XX headphones and the very capable Topping L30 headphone amp. When I listen to the Drop headphones, I usually have APO eq in place:

High pass filter, corner frequency 17 Hz, Q 1.0
High pass filter, corner frequency 17 Hz, Q 1.5
Peaking filter, center frequency 150 Hz, Gain -2.3 dB, Q 0.7
Peaking filter, center frequency 2,700 Hz, Gain 2.0 dB, Q 1.0
Peaking filter, center frequency 20,000 Hz Gain 2.5, dB Q 0.1
Low pass filter, corner frequency 21,000 Hz Q 1.0
Preamp: -5.0 dB

This lifts the midbass, drops the level of the upper bass and lower midrange, increases treble as well. If your happy with the treble, you can just use the two high-pass filters and the first peaking filter.

Sorry, I don‘t understand this stuff enough - can you explain why two high pass filters at same point but different Q? Thanks.

 

[Robin L]

Sorry, I don‘t understand this stuff enough - can you explain why two high pass filters at same point but different Q? Thanks.

I'm looking at the results on the graph. There's more of a bass boost in the bottom octave with two high pass filters at a frequency just below 20 hz with different "Q"s altering the level of deep bass. But this was from experimenting to get to the best results. Now I've got one high pass filter [at 15 hz, q 1.7] and one low shelf filter [at 60 hz, q .5]. And I'll continue to monkey with the bass controls, though I've been pretty happy for a while with these settings. Note that I also have a dip in response @ 170, q of 1, a cut of 2.5 db to reduce the upper bass fat of the 6XX.