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HBK Headphone Measurement Talks from Head-Fi and Sean Olive

mightygrey

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Thanks for the review of the talks.

The guy mentioning the elite expensive cans as his favorite lost all credibility in 10 seconds, IMHO.
Just because you haven't measured it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it. The Peugeot 205 Gti is my favourite car of all time, and I certainly haven't put it on a dyno.
 

AudioManNewb

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Current products are listed on www.jbl.com and www.akg.com. The new headphone product I referred to should be announced in the next couple of weeks. Sometimes a 3rd party foam tip like the Comply Foam tips solve fit problems, like I had with the AKG N5005 where none of the tips would provide a good seal or fit.
You mention JBL and AKG who is releasing it and is this an over ear otherwise I am not interested. I definitely would be curious to know with the JBL Tune 710BT if there is a difference in preference rating between BT and 3.5mm. I know in most ANC headphones there most certainly is but I have not heard that for a strictly BT headphone. You also measured a JBL Club One was that with ANC and BT used.
 
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D

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Is this right:

- 60% of trained/untrained listeners like the Harman Target Curve. After years of extensive research we can be pretty sure that for 60% of listeners this is "neutral" or "natural". (And Senheiser claims they had pretty much the same idea but kept it in their secret vault...)

- and this is a list for those people (to my understanding an aggregation of different measurements)

- and according to Dr. Olive hp that match this curve a pretty cheap so you can still buy a Rolex and not a Swatch but don't claim it keeps better track of time... ;-)

- 20% prefer more and 20% less bass


And then the rest is endless discussions about a) yeah Harmann Target Curve is "correct" but YOUR measurment is not (Ananda air gap gate eg...) and b) subjective terminology that explains in colourful language... nothing.
 

GWolfman

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Just because you haven't measured it doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it. The Peugeot 205 Gti is my favourite car of all time, and I certainly haven't put it on a dyno.
But when you own or have access to a dyno, and it's your business to know how other cars perform on a dyno, you consult with others about how cars should perform on a dyno, and still haven't measured your own? What's that say?
 

GXAlan

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But when you own or have access to a dyno, and it's your business to know how other cars perform on a dyno, you consult with others about how cars should perform on a dyno, and still haven't measured your own? What's that say?
Does he actually own that Sennheiser? Or was he just saying that was the best he has heard. Sort of like saying that the best car I drove was the time I got to drive a vintage F1 car.
 

staticV3

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If he doesn't he should have said that was the reason he hasn't measured it.
You wrote in your original post:

"In QA section he was asked what his favorite headphone was. He said the Sennheiser HE-1 ($45,000). He was asked if he had measured it. Shockingly he said no!"

And apparently that was enough for you to come to the conclusion that:

A: He owns said headphone or would at least not have any troubles getting a sample for measurements.
B: Him not having done measurements of this ludicrously expensive headphone must mean he does not believe in the words that he preaches.

"Gosh that was awkward when you are in a measurement seminar and you don't believe in this stuff to practice it."

Purely from the content of your original post, I cannot understand how you could possibly come to these conclusions, and what basis you have to expect any sort of justification from him.

If there was more context in that QA section that allowed you to come to those conclusions, then I apologize.

If not, however, then I would suggest refraining from assuming stuff like that.
 
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amirm

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And apparently that was enough for you to come to the conclusion that:
My conclusions were what I wrote not what you invented for me. I said nothing about him owning one or not owning one for example. I measure plenty of headphones I don't own.

I explained that when you are at a measurement conference and you are praising the value of the measurement gear the host company makes, it is very awkward to say that the best headphone to you is not one that you have actually measured. He had plenty of opportunity to say that he did not have sufficient access to it to measure it. Or a number of other explanations. But he simply said he had not and he stopped at that. And from what I recall, it was a pregnant pause at that point and then the show moved on.

Personally I am a firm believer that Jude measures because he feels he has to, not because it meaningfully applies to his evaluation and thinking of any headphone. Measurements can also seriously interfere with the business he runs so he has a conflict of interest in promoting them. So to me, it made sense why he hasn't measured his most favorite headphone.

If not, however, then I would suggest refraining from assuming stuff like that.
I suggest you pay attention to what is said and written instead of creating your own conclusions and then complaining about said conclusions. I know what I heard. And sensed the awkwardness of it at the moment. I am sure whoever asked about the measurements of said headphone was disappointed as well. these things were noteworthy in a presentation that wasn't otherwise.
 

mightygrey

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But when you own or have access to a dyno, and it's your business to know how other cars perform on a dyno, you consult with others about how cars should perform on a dyno, and still haven't measured your own? What's that say?
It says nothing. I'm sure no one actually expects someone to be able to reasonably have access to a $50K, 21kg device to measure it.

It was a narky jab.
 
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amirm

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It says nothing. I'm sure no one actually expects someone to be able to reasonably have access to a $50K, 21kg device to measure it.
So he had no reasonable access to it but determined it was the best headphone he has ever heard?
 

staticV3

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My conclusions were what I wrote not what you invented for me
"Gosh that was awkward when you are in a measurement seminar and you don't believe in this stuff to practice it."

Implies that Jude doesn't believe in measurements despite appearing as an advocate thereof, which is exactly my original point A.
And it implies that measuring or not measuring was in this case a matter of belief/motivation, not one of logistics or finances, which is exactly my original point B.
If we can agree on what I believe to be logical conclusions of your own words, then those wouldn't really classify as inventions.

I explained that when you are at a measurement conference and you are praising the value of the measurement gear the host company makes, it is very awkward to say that the best headphone to you is not one that you have actually measured.
If measuring said favorite headphone was indeed as easy as you portray it to be, then yes. I agree.

He had plenty of opportunity to say that he did not have sufficient access to it to measure it. Or a number of other explanations. But he simply said he had not and he stopped at that. And from what I recall, it was a pregnant pause at that point and then the show moved on.
That's exactly the sort of left out context I was referring to. Still, for Jude to not provide more context of his own initiative and refusing to give more context despite being asked for it are two different things.
 

mightygrey

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So he had no reasonable access to it but determined it was the best headphone he has ever heard?
Reasonable access to MEASURE it.

I've heard it, a few times now. I certainly wasn't able to take it home with me, and I certainly can't afford one. I wasn't able to measure it either. I can comfortably say it's the best-sounding headphone that I've heard.
 
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amirm

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"Gosh that was awkward when you are in a measurement seminar and you don't believe in this stuff to practice it."
That was my impression of his answer. And I saw the same sense of, "oh this is not so good" on his face at the end of said answer. You can't possibly argue that I should have said something different than what I thought at the time.

I did a quick search and Jude was given access to the HE-1 in his hotel room. He lugged a Chord DAC there to listen to it but no means of measuring it. Is it reasonable to expect him to have taken the GRAS system there? Not sure. It is heavy and I suspect the company would not have given him permission to measure it. Still, he drew up his conclusions strictly on subjective front. And seemingly doesn't feel the need to measure it.
 
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amirm

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I've heard it, a few times now. I certainly wasn't able to take it home with me, and I certainly can't afford one. I wasn't able to measure it either. I can comfortably say it's the best-sounding headphone that I've heard.
I listened to it at a suite as well. I didn't walk away with any impression of it. The operator was in control of it and I couldn't evaluate it myself. Here is a shot of the room:

index.php


Had to wait in line to get it which did not put me in good mood either. :)
 

staticV3

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I'll end the discussion with this:
As a mere reader of this thread, having partaken neither in the panel, nor in the QA session, so purely based on how you've communicated your criticism of Jude to your readers, your reasoning comes off as a little weak-footed.
That may very well be simply because I was not there and I have yet to meet the man in person.
Still, it ends up leaving a bit of a bad aftertaste.
 

Kalle

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I listened to it at a suite as well. I didn't walk away with any impression of it. The operator was in control of it and I couldn't evaluate it myself. Here is a shot of the room:

index.php


Had to wait in line to get it which did not put me in good mood either. :)
I was lucky to get the chance to listen to the HE 1 on three different occasions. Each time for 30 minutes and with my own music, using my DAP as transport. It is much easier to evaluate headphones with your own music of course, so I have understanding for your mood in this situation. ;-)

I always study headphone measurements when they are available, but even without them (no independent measurements of the HE 1 were published then) it was clear to me soon that the HE 1 was the best headphone setup which I ever heard, by a wide margin!

So why should Jude not trust his ears in order to state that these are his favorite headphones? Amir, I really appreciate your work, but imho you may misinterpret or overinterpret Jude's statement of not having measured the HE 1.

There are measurements available now from Crinacle and Oratory1990, by the way. So it should be quite clear that it closely follows the Harman Target Curve:


Best,
Kalle
 

mightygrey

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I was able to spend a good 90 minutes with the HE-1 at the Sennheiser factory in Wennebostel, and I also had the chance to listen to Tool's full 'Fear Innoculum' album over the HE01 the Sennheiser store in Sydney. Both times I was able to use my own source and listen uninterrupted. I can confidently say it's the best headphone I've heard, and I've not sighted any measurements of it before.

1633385723357.png

FDDB50Ml.jpg
 

AudioManNewb

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I'll end the discussion with this:
As a mere reader of this thread, having partaken neither in the panel, nor in the QA session, so purely based on how you've communicated your criticism of Jude to your readers, your reasoning comes off as a little weak-footed.
That may very well be simply because I was not there and I have yet to meet the man in person.
Still, it ends up leaving a bit of a bad aftertaste.
Or the readers for the most part could give 2 shits less than normal. Some outliers like your-self seem to care a lot that says more about you than anything tho. You must have an interesting home life to feel the need to post your opinion on someone else having an opinion then get in a whole discussion about said opinion. What people are going to care most about is the research.
 

StevenEleven

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Besides the AKG K371, there are headphones costing less than $100 that come close to the Harman Target like this one.
View attachment 156459
Well, curiosity killed the cat, or at least burned a $60 hole in my pocket. :D

I picked up a pair of these JBL Tune 710 BTs at Microcenter today. They are on sale at Microcenter for $60 instead of the list price of $80. They come in white, black, or a sharp-looking dark blue. I could not resist the sharp-looking dark blue. Seemed like a can’t miss proposition.

TL : DR — These inconspicuously designed and very inexpensive phones seem to have exceptionally good, even reference-quality, sound in active mode, with okay to moderately good comfort, good isolation, excellent battery life, and light-weight, durable construction. They would appear to be a wonderful bargain and could be a fun and fascinating data-point in one’s search for high-fidelity headphones.

Pairing with my Iphone was excellent. Comfort is moderately good for me but not Bose QC 35 II or Senn HD 580 or Beyer level comfort. Comfort is definitely the weak point for these phones. They fit a little tight and ideally the pads would be a little softer. Long-term listening could be problematic due to less than stellar comfort.

I am no golden ears or expert but I would have to say that for me tonality and fidelity these JBL Tune 710 BTs seem marvelous, better than any other headphone I own. All I could ever ask for. Confirmation bias? Maybe!! To me deep bass seems awesome but not overdone, highs are noticeably feathery and well-balanced, and mids seem clear but not out of proportion.

Isolation is pretty darn good for something with no active noise reduction. They do give up some ground in terms of comfort, noise reduction, or the open-air experience, to some other phones, depending on what you are looking for. I’m sure there are some Bluetooth artifacts involved during wireless use but I don’t think I’m sensitive enough to them to worry about it.

Thanks yet again ASR, and to Dr. Olive. :cool: Exactly what superlatives are appropriate or whether these are just a flash in the pan I will leave to others more expert or opinionated than I am.:)

P.S. They come with a headphone cable for wired use and a USB charging cable. They are lightweight and seem very sturdy. When used with the headphone cable instead of wirelessly the electronics don’t seem to engage but sound is still surprisingly enjoyable for me, though pretty certainly not nearly as good as when used wirelessly. I assume that in wireless mode some really excellent EQ is applied. I‘ll leave it to someone else to figure out exactly what is going on with that.
 
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GaryH

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Besides the AKG K371, there are headphones costing less than $100 that come close to the Harman Target like this one.
View attachment 156459

True, although the HE4XX has a bit more neutral overall tonal tilt (error slope of just 0.19 compared to the JBL's -0.44, with the K371 even warmer at -0.92 according to your measurements). I was mainly pointing out the uncanny similarity between the HE4XX and Sennheiser HE1's response though (especially in the all-important midrange and lower treble) at a fraction of the price, rather than strict adherence to the Harman target (still pretty close mind).
 
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