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HBK Headphone Measurement Talks from Head-Fi and Sean Olive

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amirm

amirm

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Again, I believe it is possible to at the same time believe in research, and have preferences, and listen, I don't think they are mutually exclusive positions, I don't know what more to answer to your question, OK if you think there can't be both, it's your opinion.
This has nothing to do with the point I originally made. You are piling confusion on top of confusion.
 

celroid

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The decision to no longer publish research considered useful to the industry is coming from HARMAN management - not Samsung.I've had a lot of scientific/academic freedom and publishing research over my career, and it was always justified as "thought leadership". There was this perhaps naive notion that publishing scientific evidence about what makes products sound good was more effective than just having sales and marketing making unsubstantiated claims that they sound good. But the decision was made that showing scientific evidence also helps competitors follow your lead.
This actually answers the question I had posted back in june. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...that-doesnt-like-this-curve.19668/post-648532
Quoting it here.
Well there are many in the business so what's the benefit for Harman to publish their findings and help their competitors?
It is very sad to hear that they do not continue publishing scientific evidence, but I am very surprised to hear management was actually this naive.
 
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oivavoi

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This actually answers the question I had posted back in june. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...that-doesnt-like-this-curve.19668/post-648532
Quoting it here.

It is very sad to hear that they do not continue publishing scientific evidence, but I am very surprised to hear management was actually this naive.

I think this decision is mistaken for business reasons as well. I has rather obviously helped Harman that they have been known as "thought leaders", not least with the emergence of ASR and similar forums. Compare this with Samsung (before the Harman acquisition): how many were aware that they have had an amazing sound and research lab for many years?
 

dmac6419

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Thanks for the review of the talks.

The guy mentioning the elite expensive cans as his favorite lost all credibility in 10 seconds, IMHO.
Jude's a business man,CanJam ,head fi his idea, Jude needs to hire experts to do measurements and technical stuff.
 
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bigjacko

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@MayaTlab @GXAlan Thanks for the response. My question was more towards philosophy and psychology type of question. I was questioning why Harman is doing the best compare to other companies at target curve. Maybe Harman is really gifted or lucky to get it ahead of others, or maybe Harman just gets all the attension because they are the only one showing rigurous papers on how they arrive to the target. I wonder what will happen when they stop providing the proof behind the cruve, or even the curve itself.
 
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nathan

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Been mentioned before but worth repeating. On iPhone>accessibility>AirPods>audio accessibility settings>Headphone Accommodations and change the sound to how you like,

Thanks for pointing this out. It is probably common knowledge but was new to me.

Does this correct the response of the air pods max even when NOT playing audio from the iPhone? That is, does the EQ live in the headphone, or is it only applied to sources playing back on the iPhone?
 

MayaTlab

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Does this correct the response of the air pods max even when NOT playing audio from the iPhone? That is, does the EQ live in the headphone, or is it only applied to sources playing back on the iPhone?

Only from the phone.
 

Robbo99999

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Holy Moly, that's an embarrassing & confusing viewpoint/opinion/admission regarding Head-fi, talk about lack of logical thinking:
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In QA section he was asked what his favorite headphone was. He said the Sennheiser HE-1 ($45,000). He was asked if he had measured it. Shockingly he said no! Gosh that was awkward when you are in a measurement seminar and you don't believe in this stuff to practice it.

Along these lines, he was asked if he felt listening tests were needed in headphones once you have measurements. He said no but could not provide any reasoning why.

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Regarding the B&K 5128, I think you'd have to go back to basics and do all the Harman Research again but instead using the B&K 5128, and from that point on it would be valid.....conversion factors are not working. GRAS is where it's at till then. And to be honest, I don't see that kind of research happening with the B&K 5128, and if they do it then it will take substantial time for the research itself, and also substantial time for someone to build up headphone databases on the 5128, so in terms of public usage the GRAS & all it's headphone databases associated with Oratory / Amir / Crinacle / Resolve is where it's at now & probably until the next major breakthrough in headphone technology.
 

Robbo99999

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Here is my quick measurement of the Stealth, done with my own ears, by just playing pink noise target is Optimum Hifi, and I get a heavy 9khz peak. This is averaged over 11 different positions for the Stealth, also averaged for left and right.
View attachment 156525
for comparison the Focal Elex (green) and Utopia (blue) also exactly my ears etc:
View attachment 156528
I am not sure how nobody so far didn't notice that 9khz peak, it sounds just horrible to me, also dunno why it doesn't show up in Amir's measurements, but that peak is noticeable in the other measurement to some degree.
To me the headphone sounded just horrible, not sure why many claim it to be the "world's best closed headphone". a complete letdown soundwise.
Perhaps the physical design of the Stealth is reacting with your ear anatomy in a unique way in comparison to most other people or indeed most or a few of your other headphones.....as to why, well......
 

Zensō

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Thanks for pointing this out. It is probably common knowledge but was new to me.

Does this correct the response of the air pods max even when NOT playing audio from the iPhone? That is, does the EQ live in the headphone, or is it only applied to sources playing back on the iPhone?
The correction is done in the source. So any iOS device, not the headphone.
 

PeteL

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This has nothing to do with the point I originally made. You are piling confusion on top of confusion.
OK sorry if I didn't understand, what is the point you are making? You where replying to a comment I made, not the other way around, and this was the point I am making. If someone ask me what is my favorite headphone in my collection, I am able to answer that, Wouldn't that be weirder if someone ask me, what is your Favorite headphone, and my answer would be, I don't now I haven't measure them. Jude answered to the question asked, the conference was about measurments, the question was about preference. Hope this clears the confusion.
 
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nathan

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Only from the phone.
Bummer. If it worked with the AppleTV, at the very least, that would be a big selling point for me. Need that head tracking with a good response curve and the comfort of over the ear headphones! ;)
 

NTK

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OK sorry if I didn't understand, what is the point you are making? You where replying to a comment I made, not the other way around, and this was the point I am making. If someone ask me what is my favorite headphone in my collection, I am able to answer that, Wouldn't that be weirder if someone ask me, what is your Favorite headphone, and my answer would be, I don't now I haven't measure them. Jude answered to the question asked, the conference was about measurments, the question was about preference. Hope this clears the confusion.
You can't sense the irony that the dude is giving a presentation on the capabilities of his fancy measurement rig at a measurement conference hosted by a company that sells measurement equipment (including the rig the dude got)?
 

PeteL

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You can't sense the irony that the dude is giving a presentation on the capabilities of his fancy measurement rig at a measurement conference hosted by a company that sells measurement equipment (including the rig the dude got)?
Sorry by that you mean Jude's being on B&K Payroll? Possible, I don't have an opinion on that, but what does it have to do with what we are discussing? My guess is that he didn't measure the HE1 possibly because Senn wouldn't loan one for measurments? If there is a hidden agenda behind that statement, I don't know, but I was just stating the fact that it doesn't mean you don't believe in measurments if you didn't measure your favorite headphone. For the other stuff I don't know enough.
 

Nathan Raymond

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Good idea, I could image something like the Klippel NFS for headphones, capturing the radiated 3D soundfield of the headphone and based on those measurements be able to simulate the responses on any head/ear geometry.
The tricky part could be the pads I think, which conform to a head when worn which changes the volume inside the cups, contour differently to different heads creating variable densities to the foam depending on the amount of pressure at a given point on the pads, and depending on the seal and listening volume the headphone/pad system can act as a suspension and bounce during playback, affecting the space inside the cubs and the soundwaves in that space. I'd imagine you'd need to take some material measurements of the pads in order to model them in a simulation alongside the radiated 3D sound field.
 

NTK

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Sorry by that you mean Jude's being on B&K Payroll? Possible, I don't have an opinion on that, but what does it have to do with what we are discussing? My guess is that he didn't measure the HE1 possibly because Senn wouldn't loan one for measurments? If there is a hidden agenda behind that statement, I don't know, but I was just stating the fact that it doesn't mean you don't believe in measurments if you didn't measure your favorite headphone. For the other stuff I don't know enough.
Whether Jude is directly on B&K's payroll, I don't know for sure. But by the prominent display of the B&K logo on all his measurements, it is almost certain that there is arrangement between him and B&K (e.g. significant discount on the gear he got). But that's not the point. The point is apparently for Jude there is not much point in measuring.
 

nathan

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Whether Jude is directly on B&K's payroll, I don't know for sure. But by the prominent display of the B&K logo on all his measurements, it is almost certain that there is arrangement between him and B&K (e.g. significant discount on the gear he got). But that's not the point. The point is apparently for Jude there is not much point in measuring.
True.

One of the first things I would measure would be what I like best, subjectively, to understand how that measures in comparison with everything else I am measuring.

If it is his favorite, he has had or has access to a unit for long enough to form a solid opinion on it -- and he didn't measure it -- which may be for any number of legitimate reasons, which the reader is left to fabricate in the absence of such details being on offer but it is plausible this reflects his lack of faith in measurement reflecting the gear's performance....
 

Zensō

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Whether Jude is directly on B&K's payroll, I don't know for sure. But by the prominent display of the B&K logo on all his measurements, it is almost certain that there is arrangement between him and B&K (e.g. significant discount on the gear he got). But that's not the point. The point is apparently for Jude there is not much point in measuring.
Jude is clearly buttering his bread on both sides. He has to keep both the subjectivists (primarily) and the objectivists (a growing segment) happy to keep the clicks and ad dollars flowing.
 
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brandall10

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In it's defense, I think 20 years ago even the concept of ASR was unheard of. Back in the early 2000s a budding headphone enthusiast like myself was pretty desperate for a community.

I found head-fi in its early days all the way back in 2003. It was a more sober place back then. Sometime in the late aughts (appears to be 2008 looking at the history) during a surge of growth split off a "Sound Science" subforum to keep what seemed like religious warfare out.

I think we probably should credit Tyll Hertsens starting Inner Fidelity (you know, the OG headphone guy), and of course NwaGuy for bringing some sobriety back to the mainstream.
 
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