Having a Feeling of Shame Gives Rise to Courage--SMSL M500 V2

[Shoaibexpert]

You've probably gathered by now that there is a bit of hostility and scepticism of "men on the internet saying things about audio", especially where that thing would require buying something in order to realise the benefits discussed. Usually things I will class as "accessories". You will note Hans refers to his extremely accurate measuring devices yet does not show anything from them when talking about the accessories 9.18 onwards. This is the usual pattern with these kind of vids

Set up the science (graphs, charts etc ) about how audio works - whether this is right or wrong doesnt matter from his perspective- it adds weight to what comes next.

Which is the line about vibration platforms, cables etc.

By posting it here and saying "after 9.18 is interesting" - it simply spreads the nonsense. Ditto talk of linear supplies etc.

Just because a man on the internet says it, doesnt make it true. Nor does it make it worthy of discussion. Nor does it means it might even possibly relate to your circumstances and equipment.

Curiosity and a thirst for knowledge is great- but you dont get anywhere my chucking * random internet nonsense* onto the forum and asking for thoughts

See thats the thing and this is not intended as an argument but in all honesty, people cant often tell internet nonsense from what is real or sensible...I surely cant so the option people like me have is to ask the experts by asking about their thoughts. Lets take this example: Hans has no technical background, he is a sales guy, he makes perhaps sh*ty videos or is full of sh*t...see most shouldn't care about that and I am not defending what he said after 9:18 but really, was all that video information content bollocks...not relevant perhaps yes but it explained to a simpleton like me what exactly is jitter, unless what he explained is wrong and then thats a separate discussion. Subjectively, his comments about how jitter affects the experience side of things with muffled lows and flattened mids etc resonated with my own experience when i cycled through the DPLL bandwidth on the M500 between 1 and 14, its why i asked for interested people to try and confirm - see even i am recognizing that all this might be placebo. But what i see is gross and outright denial with a slightly pissed off attitude instead of why this experience may be a false positive.

I guess what i am trying to say humbly here is, all this talk about the 'person' and not the'content' is whats confusing. Neutral people dont talk about people...they disagree to content or information in a respectful manner. They recognize that like not all marketing BS is true so is the case vice versa ie not all is false. The middle ground is whats called mastering the art of interpreting forum content and blogs...and i agree!

As you can tell by now, I like ASR discussion and the information presented here and thats why I am actively trying to put my side of the argument to try to find a common ground. When someone says something that is not rooted in science, lets try to present explanations with the intent to help clarify the misconceptions rather than putting the blame on some 'personality' and his or her skills. Its what decent people do!

 

[Shoaibexpert]

This is probably what makes the difference between premium renowned mfr and SMSL, etc. Poor communication, i.e. non-existent. Poor customer care apart from designing the item solely to match Amir's requirements (here better heat dissipation).

You can be sure as most resellers on AliExpress will confirm to you that its V2. I got mine after almost everyone confirmed they had the latest stock. Also, @SMSL-Mandy may be more inclined in responding over other forums as she did to one of my questions on head fi today...if you have something urgent. Ive also noted that they have posted WolfX meaurements on some of their equipment so i guess their focus may be changing. Lastly, while having ESS chip implementation issues around heating is unforgiveable for a final and saleable product and SMSL did fail twice on this once here with M500 and that other time with the SU8, but they coming back with a HW revision to correct certain issues and then offering replacements to recent customers is something worth appreciating...

 

[Nango]

This is new to me, do they replace v1 for v2?

 

[Jimbob54]

This is new to me, do they replace v1 for v2?

Why would they? Please dont think there was anything "wrong" with V1. The thermal issue might have been interesting from an engineering perspective but unlikely to make any dint in audible performance.

 

[SMSL-Mandy]

This is probably what makes the difference between premium renowned mfr and SMSL, etc. Poor communication, i.e. non-existent. Poor customer care apart from designing the item solely to match Amir's requirements (here better heat dissipation).

https://hifi-express.com/products/smsl-m500-mqa-es9038pro-dac
Confirm the m500 in stock is V2. You can select the send from here.
Thanks.

 

[jaraheel]

https://hifi-express.com/products/smsl-m500-mqa-es9038pro-dac
Confirm the m500 in stock is V2. You can select the send from here.
Thanks.

Do Apos.audio and amazon carry V2 as well?

 

[Veri]

Do Apos.audio and amazon carry V2 as well?

If you ask apos they'll be sure the respond very quickly. But I'm pretty sure they only sell newest stock so should be absolutely fine.

 

[SMSL-Mandy]

Do Apos.audio and amazon carry V2 as well?

If the amazon seller is SMSL factory store, that sure is V2. Can't fully confirm other dealers

 

[jaraheel]

If the amazon seller is SMSL factory store, that sure is V2. Can't fully confirm other dealers

Thanks. Do you have any updates on the SP400 amp?

 

[Shoaibexpert]

Do Apos.audio and amazon carry V2 as well?

You'd be better off asking them. As for the best price, check on AliExpress as well. Those guys do take special approvals for best discounts. I got mine from Aoshida HiFi and they had V2 which is the version I got a month ago. There's lots of sellers there giving offers in competition. Laissez Faire baby!

 

[w1000i]

Alright, I won't say if it makes a difference or not but I ask those who want to tinker a bit (and may be happy to get surprised) to do these and see if in their subjective listening and by A/B if they can tell a difference - provided you have a revealing enough system:

For USB users:
1. Turn the DPLL to MIN or untill you hear a stable signal on the M500 - since USB is less prone to Jitter, I am assuming you can go all the way down to MIN,
2. Oversample the 44.1K stream to 352.8K within windows (non Tidal exclusive mode for example)

OR

For Toslink users:
1. Grab a battery pack, charge is fully and power the say the Chromecast Audio with that or better yet use a Linear Power Supply,
2. Again, turn the DPLL all the way to MIN or untill you hear a stable signal from the M500.

Try to go between MIN to MAX on the DPLL and see how the sound changes (if any).

Don't be shy to report back if you feel like it and hear any changes in your musical experience...ignore if you don't care! Just letting it out there. Without going into the technical details, let's just say this new DPLL option in the M500V2 is a very nice feature to have...many higher end DACs don't have this as user configurable! YMMV

Most of all, enjoy your music!

I tried Min to MAX and I heard drop-out around 7.
but when I upsample to 768khz with ROON I hear no drop-out and I think DPLL is not in use.
Maybe DPLL has to do with upsampling ? I don't know.

However, I think upsampling to Max like 768khz will reduce the load on the DAC digital section which may improve the overall performance.

I hope @Amir check if upsampling to max will improve the DAC noise performance.

 

[Shoaibexpert]

I tried Min to MAX and I heard drop-out around 7.
but when I upsample to 768khz with ROON I hear no drop-out and I think DPLL is not in use.
Maybe DPLL has to do with upsampling ? I don't know.

However, I think upsampling to Max like 768khz will reduce the load on the DAC digital section which may improve the overall performance.

I hope @Amir check if upsampling to max will improve the DAC noise performance.

Thanks for trying. Well, from what ive read, upsampling doesnt alter the SQ but as you said it may help with unloading the DAC chip. But on the flip side, ive also read that upsampling increases noise and jitter per se (Dont know why, yet!).

I am assuming youre running USB interface so the DAC is ALWAYS gonna behave asynchronously (for all inputs i guess...question coming up!) so I am sure upsampling wont disable DPLL jitter correction in the M500. My Chromecast Audio (very very rarely) and USB input almost never loses sync when DPLL is Minimum, which either means its not working as it should or my both sources are really jitter free! In my humble experience, Chromecast audio when used with proper configuration ie with Roon or Tidal app will sound more cleaner and with blacker backgrounds, effortless than the USB connection...no scientific evidence of this exists btw so it just may be my system.

Btw i think you tagged the wrong Amir...

 

[Shoaibexpert]

Now the question: Since the COAX signal contains the audio and timing information from say an external master clock (as compared to say Toslink which only has audio information), would COAX signal make the M500 behave synchronously ie disable internal reclocking and jitter attenuation and could that improve the SQ per se? Apologies if this seems like a stupid question...all part of learning!

 

[Veri]

You are not going to "improve SQ" by any of that, USB will have the lowest jitter and sidebands since otherwise the data and clock needs to be read first from the coax/... signal, and will usually be reclocked/DPLL'ed. USB is the easiest and usually best performing input. No need for any digital nervosa..

would COAX signal make the M500 behave synchronously ie disable internal reclocking and jitter attenuation and could that improve the SQ per se?

No.

 

[Shoaibexpert]

USB will have the lowest jitter and sidebands since otherwise the data and clock needs to be read first

Ok but i thought even USB signal was being reclocked and DPLL'ed as it is asynchronous in M500? I was more thinking in terms of external reclockers (earlier proven useless here at ASR, i know) which reclock and send COAX signals to the DAC. That signal should have a master clock timing as well as the audio information and hence i thought maybe DAC doesnt need to reclock (internally) or DPLL the signal...essentially meaning behaving like in synchronous mode for COAX, which should be better than async conversion theoretically!

Anyways, maybe its my laptop USB module or the heaps of wiring close to my setup that i feel the noise floor is lower for CCA...maybe not true and i am just hearing (or not hearing things) with CCA...

 

[Shoaibexpert]

USB is the easiest and usually best performing input.

Btw was reading the M400 review and noticed how worst (jitter wise) the COAX and Toslink inputs performed as compared to USB. Would you say the M500 would have similar issues between its inputs as the M500?

 

[w1000i]

You are not going to "improve SQ" by any of that, USB will have the lowest jitter and sidebands since otherwise the data and clock needs to be read first from the coax/... signal, and will usually be reclocked/DPLL'ed. USB is the easiest and usually best performing input. No need for any digital nervosa..

No.

USB may inject more RF/EMF noise . DAART Yulong Aquila II uses FIFO buffer vs DAC handling and you can switch between them. Z-review confirm sound change but I think he may used optical not USB ( I forget )

 

[Jimbob54]

Btw was reading the M400 review and noticed how worst (jitter wise) the COAX and Toslink inputs performed as compared to USB. Would you say the M500 would have similar issues between its inputs as the M500?

Depends if they use the same connectors in m500 v2 as they blamed (corona supply issues) on the m400. Even seeing the inputs tested wouldn't mean your unit didn't use the dodgy ones. But as Amir said, not audible and you prefer the Toslink over the USB?

 

[Veri]

USB may inject more RF/EMF noise.

Looks totally clear to me. Any good DAC should filter those noises. A cheaper DAC like a sub $100 one could pick up USB noise but usually this should not happen. Key point usually

 

[urfaust]

On Audiophonics it's clearly stated it's the V2, so no guesswork. Got it from here, really pleased with it, i even like its look. For me the headphone output is more than enough coming from an atom that ive only used in low gain. Im using mostly iem's but tried with an old DT880 250 Ohm and still had plenty (i want to be able to hear a few more years)