Has the objective of ASR been reached?

[fatoldgit]

Some people want gear for the status and their knowledge knowing that the average person cannot afford it.

Like this guy? Nice little echo chamber you have there but at least he has a level... so that will really help.

Has some Magico S5 speakers @ ~$40k and from the blue glow, some Macintosh stuff so we are way north of $100k.

Or this setup with $US 235,000 speakers... rich people LOVE echo chambers from my years of looking at this stuff online.

Peter

PS. Its not jealousy is just having the basic decency to give this type of equipment a decent room to let it reach its potential... if you dont you are just a using the system as a "look at me" thing

 

[Jim Shaw]

Some people want gear for the status and their knowledge knowing that the average person cannot afford it.

This, and a buyer of Waterford drinking glasses is unlikely to drop test them against those from Libbey.

 

[kemmler3D]

I very much doubt the people in the market for the high dollar stuff are going to come to ASR to see what we say.

I'm not so sure about that. That assumes if you're spending >$XX,XXX on a component, that you are a 'true believer' or otherwise not interested in measurements, etc. I don't think that's actually true. It's just that until recently, you could only rarely find good measurements of anything except studio equipment.

So even if they did want measurements, high-end buyers would have to go with the next best thing, the advice of people who seem knowledgeable. This could be sales reps, their audiophile cousin, or somebody on a forum like Audiogon.

My guess is that some significant percentage of the high-5 low-6 figure club would at least partially rely on measurements - if there were any. Not 100% or 80%, but maybe 20 or 30%.

There is also the fact that there aren't a lot of people who fully understand measurements, regardless of price point. These days there's an opportunity to fill the education gap with sites like this, Youtube, etc. But we'll have to keep at it to stem the tide of fluff and nonsense, if that's to do any good.

 

[fpitas]

I'm not so sure about that. That assumes if you're spending >$XX,XXX on a component, that you are a 'true believer' or otherwise not interested in measurements, etc. I don't think that's actually true. It's just that until recently, you could only rarely find good measurements of anything except studio equipment.

So even if they did want measurements, high-end buyers would have to go with the next best thing, the advice of people who seem knowledgeable. This could be sales reps, their audiophile cousin, or somebody on a forum like Audiogon.

My guess is that some significant percentage of the high-5 low-6 figure club would at least partially rely on measurements - if there were any.

There is also the fact that there aren't a lot of people who fully understand measurements. These days there's an opportunity to fill the education gap with sites like this, Youtube, etc. But we'll have to keep at it to stem the tide of fluff and nonsense, if that's to do any good.

I hope you're right.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

Like this guy? Nice little echo chamber you have there but at least he has a level... so that will really help.

Has some Magico S5 speakers @ ~$40k and from the blue glow, some Macintosh stuff so we are way north of $100k.

Or this setup with $US 235,000 speakers... rich people LOVE echo chambers from my years of looking at this stuff online.

Peter

PS. Its not jealousy is just having the basic decency to give this type of equipment a decent room to let it reach its potential... if you dont you are just a using the system as a "look at me" thing

Why do poor(er) people think they know anything about the motivations of richer people? It quite possible the owner of that house/system didn't even look at the price of the speakers, they could have been bought on the suggestion of a design consultant. This thread is full of such comments:

Some people want gear for the status and their knowledge knowing that the average person cannot afford it.

Relatively few people could afford my hifi, but I've never been out to prove anything to anyone, it just gives my wife and I a lot of pleasure. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks, only two other people have ever heard our audio system.

People buy so-called high end gear based on peer pressure.

The only peer pressure I've ever had was from my wife. She hated the sight of every speaker we looked at, and the ones we owned, until she saw one and we bought it. It was the most expensive hifi component I'd ever bought by some distance. It was a good choice.

 

[IAtaman]

The only peer pressure I've ever had was from my wife. She hated the sight of every speaker we looked at, and the ones we owned, until she saw one and we bought it. It was the most expensive hifi component I'd ever bought by some distance. It was a good choice.

You realize with your last paragraph you are just proving the points of the the people whose opinions you just critized a few to lines above, right?

 

[-Matt-]

Like the title says, has the objective of ASR been reached? Consumers and companies have took notice of the importance of objective performance and I believe it has significantly changed the market. I'd guess as time goes on, the amount of audio companies shooting for objective performance will continue exponentially.

One remaining challenge for ASR, inflicted by the equipment manufacturers, is that devices with the same model number may vary significantly in performance.

The substitution of DAC chips in Denon AVRs without a change in model number is a case in point. Such practice muddies the water and should not, in my view, be legal. When equipment is provided by a manufacturer there is always the possibility of a "golden sample" being sent. How do we know that the E.U. version of a device is made and performs the same as the US one?

If we ASR readers can't trust that the measurements reflect the performance that we will actually get from a device we buy, then we still have the same problem we had before ASR existed.

For at least a few popular product models it would be a good idea to repeat the same set of measurements for several ASR member submitted devices. This would give us an idea of the manufacturer's performance repeatability.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Many of of my peer group are wealthy. I’ve known them all my life. I know their motivations.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

I'm not so sure about that. That assumes if you're spending >$XX,XXX on a component, that you are a 'true believer' or otherwise not interested in measurements, etc. I don't think that's actually true. It's just that until recently, you could only rarely find good measurements of anything except studio equipment.

So even if they did want measurements, high-end buyers would have to go with the next best thing, the advice of people who seem knowledgeable. This could be sales reps, their audiophile cousin, or somebody on a forum like Audiogon.

My guess is that some significant percentage of the high-5 low-6 figure club would at least partially rely on measurements - if there were any. Not 100% or 80%, but maybe 20 or 30%.

There is also the fact that there aren't a lot of people who fully understand measurements, regardless of price point. These days there's an opportunity to fill the education gap with sites like this, Youtube, etc. But we'll have to keep at it to stem the tide of fluff and nonsense, if that's to do any good.

I think you over-complicate things.

There are quite a few measurements of most high-end equipment, especially speakers. The process is involved, and the manufacturer will usually send the product with 2 or 3 technicians to set it up and then pack and collect it. I went to a demo of Wilson Alexia V recently, the main guy from Wilson did it and there were two people who delivered, unpacked, set up and then did the whole thing in reverse, leaving at 11pm. When a review is done, there will be back and forth for several months. ASR does not appear to have a working relationship with those types of brands or adopt that approach, so is unlikely to get hold of those products.

Those products usually measure extremely well, you never have to worry about noise or hiss or headroom, or the ability of speakers to raise the roof, or anything like that. So it often just boils down to personal taste. Book in an appointment or have the product delivered for a home trial. The process is always the same, the dealer sets it up, leaves the room and gives you as much time as you want. My dealer and I have completely different tastes in speakers, he loaned me a pair of the brand he uses and I hated them, but the speakers we have both measure extremely well.

I agree that there aren't a lot of people that fully understand measurements, there probably are few who understand much at all. In high-end, I don't think there's much need to know.

 

[RayDunzl]

For people who often come looking for the newest latest greatest audio device to replace the newest latest greatest audio device they bought last month, we could make them aware that progress is slow.

I asked our AI buddy to comment on a respected supplier:

It doesn't have a DAC4 on the radar, though the time interval is ripe for a latest greatest unit to emerge.

Buying for different features is another matter.

I'm only 14 years behind, now.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

Many of of my peer group are wealthy. I’ve known them all my life. I know their motivations.

Some of my peer group are extraordinarily wealthy. I known them all my life. I have little idea about their motivations, other than they like to accumulate wealth.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Some of my peer group are extraordinarily wealthy. I known them all my life. I have little idea about their motivations, other than they like to accumulate wealth.

And they shop at different stores! Because they can. My $20k system is what some have paid for cables.

 

[thecheapseats]

possibly one unintended consequence of ASR's original objectives (there may be others - I wouldn't know) - is ASR is talked about in pro-audio circles quite a lot... and I don't mean online - I mean people calling each other and recommending it to each other... I was surprised... and additionally surprised after joining to see several mfg's pieces I use every day being reviewed here...

for decades, the worlds of pro-audio and consumer audio never really intersected and had little in common - always very different in applications... quite remarkable, in my opinion...

 

[robwpdx]

Not yet. When other publisher reviews start referencing ASR or Audio Precision/equivalent tool data, including spinorama, we will be there.

Your listening room is a variable reviews gloss over.

I would love to see the objective transfer function of basic studio gear and microphones published. Once you get into EQ and dynamics, the operating point space explodes, but something is known of them in the proprietary software models in DAWs.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

And they shop at different stores! Because they can. My $20k system is what some have paid for cables.

They generally don't shop at stores. $20k is what some pay for lunch.

The last time my dealer was here was on the way back from a client who had new speakers on trial (XVX). He told me he'd done about $2m of business with that client in the last 3 or 4 years, which is not a lot because he has $20m of cars in the garage that he likes to show people. These clients are rare and need a lot of management, and selling a product like that can get very complex between the client, dealer, distributor and manufacturer. Then someone will come in the store and spend $500,000 in half a hour.

I can't begin to understand the attitude to money of people who are multi-millionaires or billionaires, even if I have known them all my life. Equally, I just don't see why it can be assumed that people with money to burn should be responsive to science-based arguments about expensive hifi. They're not stupid, just wealthy. Get over it.

 

[Deleted member 51584]

possibly one unintended consequence of ASR's original objectives (there may be others - I wouldn't know) - is ASR is talked about in pro-audio circles quite a lot... and I don't mean online - I mean people calling each other and recommending it to each other... I was surprised... and additionally surprised after joining to see several mfg's pieces I use every day being reviewed here...

for decades, the worlds of pro-audio and consumer audio never really intersected and had little in common - always very different in applications... quite remarkable, in my opinion...

It doesn't surprise me because I see more relevant pro audio reviews on ASR than consumer product reviews. There are crossover products in the UK like ATC and PMC SE speakers. I appreciate their fine qualities and accuracy, but I couldn't live with them. When I had component audio all my XLR cables were Mogami from the pro audio store. From ages about 14 to 21 one of my kids used a pair of $150 Alesis active speakers and Chromecast dongle or used a mobile via RCA. They got totally trashed at university and we had a binning ceremony. There is new crossover - Grimm, Kii, D&D 8c - which are more consumer friendly.

 

[JSmith]

we had a binning ceremony

JSmith

 

[RayDunzl]

for decades, the worlds of pro-audio and consumer audio never really intersected and had little in common

Well, as soon as the band broke up in 1981 or so, the amps found duty in our home systems...

To paraphrase Dr Tyrell, "More realistic than Realistic™"

For the younger visitors, "Realistic" was a Radio Shack house brand.

 

[mhardy6647]

For people who often come looking for the newest latest greatest audio device to replace the newest latest greatest audio device they bought last month, we could make them aware that progress is slow.

I asked our AI buddy to comment on a respected supplier:

View attachment 275308

It doesn't have a DAC4 on the radar, though the time interval is ripe for a latest greatest unit to emerge.

Buying for different features is another matter.

I'm only 14 years behind, now.

Yeah -- some products have long-ish lifecycles.
I believe that the 2A3 was introduced in 1933 -- the original single-plate version, that is. The double plate version came along in 1936 -- and is still goin' strong. I don't think they've ever been completely out of production.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio-Magazines-Other/Archive-Vacuum-Tube-Valley/Vacuum-Tube-Valley-12.pdf

 

[thecheapseats]

Well, as soon as the band broke up in 1981 or so, the amps found duty in our home systems...

To paraphrase Dr Tyrell, "More realistic than Realistic™"

For the younger visitors, "Realistic" was a Radio Shack house brand.

always exceptions to the rule - and it cuts both ways... to this day I run an old -10 unbal 100 watt per side SAE amp which drives the headphone cue system in the studio from a +4 bal console feed... - super clean/clear - rebuilt twice over forty-three years...