Has the meta on IEMs moved away from Harman's "pinna gain"?

[markanini]

And in that explanation you pretty much summed why I think personally HBB is way off the mark (and whose taste and ears I don't trust at all), and why the target has moved.

Because to make it work as a tuning you have to cut and boost multiple areas of the spectrum until you're left with a husk (which is what I feel it sounds like in IEMs), completely unnatural sounding no matter what you feed through it.

That would've been the job of a daring producer/mix/master engineer, not a IEM designer. If you manage to create something that sounds dull but at the same time pierces your skull with exaggerated highs, you overdid it somewhere 20 steps back and it's better to start from scratch, you can't save that mess.

I don't disagree. At the same time let's be honest, the market has an unsatiable demand for more bass which skews the selection and limits the number of truly balanced IEMs, like Hexa. That's why seeking out a balanced tuned IEM will lead you to IEMs with elevated bass more times than not. For some use cases like outside use, more bass can be entirely valid. I've sampled numerous mainstream-bassy sets, took note of what works in that context, merely due to the limited selection of actually balanced IEMs.

It's annoying when that's not what you want. Better if all manufacturers had a Hexa or two in their lineup.

Many enthusiasts IMO are in denial about how abundant bass-elevated IEMs are. This includes IEMs tuned to Harman 2019, a controversial thing to say. But, it should be intuitive to anyone with audio mixing experience that the extra lower treble and the extra bass are there to complement each other. That's the reason why Harman 2019 is a fundamentally bass elevated tuning. HBB can be someone you don't agree much with. But he's undoubtedly a basshead, and knows a basshead IEM when he hears one, ie Harman 2019 tuned sets which he keeps praising.

Sets tuned like Davinci, Dusk, KE4, Mega-5EST are very bassy. The bass is elevated an additional 2dB over Harman 2019. It's not clear what they bring to the table. I can't blame manufacturers for giving customers what they want. I only doubt this is how you pull off a mainstream-bassy IEM well. All that effort only to fail at tickling the mainstreams fancy, and to sideline balanced tuning which JM-1 is so much better suited for.

 

[Somafunk]

I must be “down with the kids” who prefer more bass as I’m really enjoying my FatFreq HBB Duece but I don’t listen to any music with “real” instruments, 90%+ of my listening according to roon is electronic, in fact the only time I’ve ever heard real instruments was the occasional street busker/performance.

All bass no taste is how I like it

 

[WalterW]

So what would be a cheap IEM that is close to JM-1?

Actually the Truthear Red with the impedance adapter is also quite close. The dips at about 175 and 400 Hz are measurements artefacts. It has just a bit more energy between 800 and 2000 Hz.

 

[scolfaro]

I don't disagree. At the same time let's be honest, the market has an unsatiable demand for more bass which skews the selection and limits the number of truly balanced IEMs, like Hexa. That's why seeking out a balanced tuned IEM will lead you to IEMs with elevated bass more times than not. For some use cases like outside use, more bass can be entirely valid. I've sampled numerous mainstream-bassy sets, took note of what works in that context, merely due to the limited selection of actually balanced IEMs.

It's annoying when that's not what you want. Better if all manufacturers had a Hexa or two in their lineup.

Many enthusiasts IMO are in denial about how abundant bass-elevated IEMs are. This includes IEMs tuned to Harman 2019, a controversial thing to say. But, it should be intuitive to anyone with audio mixing experience that the extra lower treble and the extra bass are there to complement each other. That's the reason why Harman 2019 is a fundamentally. HBB can be someone you don't agree much with. But he's undoubtedly a basshead, and knows a basshead IEM when he hears one, ie Harman 2019 tuned sets which he keeps praising.

Sets tuned like Davinci, Dusk, KE4, Mega-5EST are very bassy. The bass is elevated an additional 2dB over Harman 2019. It's not clear what they bring to the table. I can't blame manufacturers for giving customers what they want. I only doubt this is how you pull off a mainstream-bassy IEM well. All that effort only to fail at tickling the mainstreams fancy, and to sideline balanced tuning which JM-1 is so much better suited for.

Absolutely agree with everything you said, my critique about HBB is because I understood him to be a basshead after a while, but he doesn't wear the cap it seems. And I've heard him name stuff "neutral" or "lean" in a way that is so skewed that got me thinking whether he was actually listening to them things....

Also, he talks about "the slam", "I got to the drop and there was no slam", this is non-informative, yet he seems to judge it all as an indication of how the lower third of a mix works. Of course if you carve all the low-mids out and leave the bass you don't even really need to boost anything to have "slam", because it's going to be in there unencumbered. There's more if you read into it, but at this point I'm only rating Crinacle, The Headphone Guys and Super Review.

As for the Hexa and getting it closer, my personal preference is 1db up for the mid-bass and 1db up somewhere between 5.7kHz and 6kHz, so I don't think it's "perfect" as well, but I don't think any of my headphones or IEMs ever got that "close."

So yeah, if that was literally taken as a benchmark and then people deviated 1-4db up in bass, the whole rest of the spectrum wouldn't get so buried that there would be no need to start experimenting in peaks and valleys afterwards to make room and balance, which is what to my ears sounds just "childish."

Maybe the flaw in this current wave of influencer tuning collabs is to have too few people with an audio background doing the rounds? It's all subjective one way or the other, but if your work depends on being able to listen the respect for what doesn't work goes down pretty fast, as the appreciation for what does goes up

 

[markanini]

Absolutely agree with everything you said, my critique about HBB is because I understood him to be a basshead after a while, but he doesn't wear the cap it seems. And I've heard him name stuff "neutral" or "lean" in a way that is so skewed that got me thinking whether he was actually listening to them things....

Also, he talks about "the slam", "I got to the drop and there was no slam", this is non-informative, yet he seems to judge it all as an indication of how the lower third of a mix works. Of course if you carve all the low-mids out and leave the bass you don't even really need to boost anything to have "slam", because it's going to be in there unencumbered. There's more if you read into it, but at this point I'm only rating Crinacle, The Headphone Guys and Super Review.

As for the Hexa and getting it closer, my personal preference is 1db up for the mid-bass and 1db up somewhere between 5.7kHz and 6kHz, so I don't think it's "perfect" as well, but I don't think any of my headphones or IEMs ever got that "close."

So yeah, if that was literally taken as a benchmark and then people deviated 1-4db up in bass, the whole rest of the spectrum wouldn't get so buried that there would be no need to start experimenting in peaks and valleys afterwards to make room and balance, which is what to my ears sounds just "childish."

Maybe the flaw in this current wave of influencer tuning collabs is to have too few people with an audio background doing the rounds? It's all subjective one way or the other, but if your work depends on being able to listen the respect for what doesn't work goes down pretty fast, as the appreciation for what does goes up

The lack of an audio background is problematic. HBB only gets it half right, using familiar selected tracks that you heard on many systems is good. His selection of tracks are not great for audio evaluation. For instance, the drums on "When the Levee Breaks" are deliberately thinned. If they sound full it means the playback system is too warm, and he doesn't seem to understand that.

Other share intricate impressions about the playback quality after listening to snippets of song someone else selected, on trade shows and such. There's no way you can evaluate an IEM like that.

 

[Fregly]

The lack of an audio background is problematic. HBB only gets it half right, using familiar selected tracks that you heard on many systems is good. His selection of tracks are not great for audio evaluation. For instance, the drums on "When the Levee Breaks" are deliberately thinned. If they sound full it means the playback system is too warm, and he doesn't seem to understand that.

Other share intricate impressions about the playback quality after listening to snippets of song someone else selected, on trade shows and such. There's no way you can evaluate an IEM like that.

Not sure what you mean by Levee drums being thinned. The playback was slowed. It helps create that swampy drag. And lowering the pitch will thicken things up. The symbols sound unusual.

 

[scolfaro]

Not sure what you mean by Levee drums being thinned. The playback was slowed. It helps create that swampy drag. And lowering the pitch will thicken things up. The symbols sound unusual.

That's not just on that track, the weight of the drums comes from the room mics and is generally a product of reverberation, but the sound in itself is quite scooped (as was the case for most rock records until the 90s, and especially during the 70s). It was hard to get the bass through with tape so a part of the solution was to make the drums make way for it (mostly thinning the top of the kick and keeping everything lean until the snare fundamental).

 

[Dazerdoreal]

JM-1 only sounds like a good idea if the bass is not overly boosted. Something like JM-1 with 8db bass boost seems absurd to me.

In comparison to 711-Harman, 5128-based targets such as JM-1 are basically the opposite of V-Shaped. If I get more lower mids, the amount of bass needs to be lowered accordingly, otherwise it gets muddy.

I own the Red and I quite like it, but I never used the adapter. I dont even need to test it in order to know that it would sound ridiculous to my ears. The default bass level is just right to me and on certain tracks I already miss a bit of clarity.

 

[WalterW]

JM-1 only sounds like a good idea if the bass is not overly boosted. Something like JM-1 with 8db bass boost seems absurd to me.

In comparison to 711-Harman, 5128-based targets such as JM-1 are basically the opposite of V-Shaped. If I get more lower mids, the amount of bass needs to be lowered accordingly, otherwise it gets muddy.

I own the Red and I quite like it, but I never used the adapter. I dont even need to test it in order to know that it would sound ridiculous to my ears. The default bass level is just right to me and on certain tracks I already miss a bit of clarity.

Well, that might be. But on the other hand, JM-1 with -8db/oct tilt and 4 dB of bass shelf is basically the Soundguys target. But they claim that their target is valid for both, over ear headphones and IEMs, yet in the Harman research it was a clear finding, that IEMs need more bass than headphones.

 

[markanini]

Well, that might be. But on the other hand, JM-1 with -8db/oct tilt and 4 dB of bass shelf is basically the Soundguys target. But they claim that their target is valid for both, over ear headphones and IEMs, yet in the Harman research it was a clear finding, that IEMs need more bass than headphones.

Newer evidence suggests the need for more bass has more to do with a limitation of the 711 spec couplers, addressed in BK5128. The outer ear still dampens a bit of high treble, so using the same target for headphones and IEMs is not ideal, despite Soundguys choice.

 

[WalterW]

Newer evidence suggests the need for more bass has more to do with a limitation of the 711 spec couplers, addressed in BK5128. The outer ear still dampens a bit of high treble, so using the same target for headphones and IEMs is not ideal, despite Soundguys choice.

Which new evidence is this besides the BK5128 measurements? Because in the average transfer from 711 to 5128, the bass is just about 2dB lower, but the difference in the HarmanOE2018 and the HarmanIE2019 tagets is more than 2 dB in the bass shelf.

 

[scolfaro]

Which new evidence is this besides the BK5128 measurements? Because in the average transfer from 711 to 5128, the bass is just about 2dB lower, but the difference in the HarmanOE2018 and the HarmanIE2019 tagets is more than 2 dB in the bass shelf.

The point is exactly that, that Harman 2019 has too much bass and highs and not enough mids, that Target in essence is contested.

 

[markanini]

Which new evidence is this besides the BK5128 measurements? Because in the average transfer from 711 to 5128, the bass is just about 2dB lower, but the difference in the HarmanOE2018 and the HarmanIE2019 tagets is more than 2 dB in the bass shelf.

Let Oratory1990(Konstantin Davy) answer your question before you try to do so yourself. He is an acoustical engineer and expert of ear mounted transducers and measurement systems, and a colleague of Sean Olive. Surely you can accept his relevant commentary.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/10igm8d/comment/j5eqzpp

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/1bxy3cn/comment/l03yvn

 

[WalterW]

Let Oratory1990(Konstantin Davy) answer your question before you try to do so yourself. He is an acoustical engineer and expert of ear mounted transducers and measurement systems, and a colleague of Sean Olive. Surely you can accept his relevant commentary.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/10igm8d/comment/j5eqzpp

https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/1bxy3cn/comment/l03yvn

I know who oratory is, and because of this I know that he is not a real colleague of Sean Olive, since he is an enigneer, but not a researcher and publishing in peer review reviewed journals.
Furthermore, the "answer" you gave me is about two years old and he wrote "I suspect there will be no need for separate target curves for in-ear and over-ear headphones with them." So he did not measured it yet (at the time) and just guessed. I would not call this evidence.

 

[WalterW]

The point is exactly that, that Harman 2019 has too much bass and highs and not enough mids, that Target in essence is contested.

Maybe for you. The recent paper by Sean Olive says otherwise.

 

[scolfaro]

Maybe for you. The recent paper by Sean Olive says otherwise.

I am not alone in this, obviously. And I am 100% agreeing with Harman for over-ears. I've EQd 4-5 over-ears to Harman recently and always felt they felt better and sounded more "right" according to the references and cross-checked with my studio monitoring.

And then a few weeks later I started looking for IEMs and got into the chi-fi wave, and it was either a non-issue (7Hz Zero 2, Wan'er Studio) in which I didn't feel the need to tweak further (and also didn't find them "reference" grade, but could extract info like a consumer hi-fi kind), or found them horribly inaccurate (Zero Reds, EW300) to the point that EQing didn't make sense to me.

Then I came across the Hexa, which sounded mid-bass lean, but super "right" as reference, and bumping the midbass and highs 1db towards Harman made it sound "perfect" and in line with my LCD-2 Classic tuned to Harman, or Sundara tuned to Harman as well, or my studio monitoring (linearized by Neumann/Fraunhofer institute).

AutoEQ Harman for the Hexa would suggest a 4-5 db boost in both areas, that felt horrendously wrong.

 

[InfiniteJester]

SoundGuys are very close to being as right as Harman OE. Maybe the best target yet. While similar, it adds something to JM-1. Hexa measures wonderfully. I'm really tempted by this IEM.

I personally think that Harman IE is terrible. I dislike it quite a bit.

 

[markanini]

I know who oratory is, and because of this I know that he is not a real colleague of Sean Olive, since he is an enigneer, but not a researcher and publishing in peer review reviewed journals.
Furthermore, the "answer" you gave me is about two years old and he wrote "I suspect there will be no need for separate target curves for in-ear and over-ear headphones with them." So he did not measured it yet (at the time) and just guessed. I would not call this evidence.

If the age of Konstantins comments are a problem then the age of Sean Olives publications must me even more problematic, given that his is more than twice as old...In reality there's no controversy as all the parties mentioned are aware of each other and, among other ways, stay informed through each other's output on various formal and less formal channels. Another source of information is the is documentation of standards that the two-measurement systems discussed are based upon. Of which IEC 711 states that precision is limited below 100Hz.

You don't need to construct your original hypothesis, shoehorning findings of ageing systems, with experts in the field already at work, and spec documents already elucidating the matter.

Your argument that they are not colleagues is semantic. They are both professionals working in the field of acoustics, contributing to the same domain. Their roles fundamentally overlap, making them colleagues. Both their work depends equally on being aware of correct and up to date information.

 

[Dazerdoreal]

What irks me a bit about the Sound Guys Target is that even the upper treble level is above the level of the mids. Seems a bit much. Maybe a target for the older folks, or people who listen at low DB levels. On the other hand, the Harman 5128 interpretation does seem to have a bit much in the 6k region and not enough upper treble.

Crinacle's 5128 Graph Tool | Hangout.Audio

Compare graphs from the world's largest public database of ITU-T P.57 Type 4.3 IEM measurements, maintained by Crinacle.

graph.hangout.audio

 

[scolfaro]

SoundGuys are very close to being as right as Harman OE. Maybe the best target yet. While similar, it adds something to JM-1. Hexa measures wonderfully. I'm really tempted by this IEM.View attachment 400843

I personally think that Harman IE is terrible. I dislike it quite a bit.

Man, I've gotten to the point of literally being hyped by those IEM's. I am actually talking about them with fellow musicians whenever I talk about monitoring with them. I use them everyday to change perspective in a studio with two good pairs of monitors (one full-range) and the Audeze hanging next to them.

I de-essed vocals a day or two ago with them, and cleaned up other vocal tracks with them today because they make that kind of detail work effortless, and the highs with that 1db boost are just -spot on-. And the part that impressed me the most, I monitored with them while tracking someone, and noticed I was much more precise on Hexas after hearing takes from the same person monitored through HD280s (which are good tracking headphones for the seal).

Literally the most effective 80€ I've ever spent in studio monitoring equipment, bar nothing. It just sits there next to tools and systems costing 10-40 times as much and gets regularly picked. I am positive you won't regret, easiest buy even if you only had 80 bucks to buy one thing in one year.