Has the meta on IEMs moved away from Harman's "pinna gain"?

[Klonatans]

I recently got Ziigaat Doscinco IEMs that have this meta (JM-1) kind of warm, laid back and bassy tuning and to my ears they sounded a bit dull out of the box lacking energy at 3-8 kHz area. Fortunately PEQ exists and I added about 2 dB at this particular area (still about 2 dB lower than required by the fatiguing Harman target), reduced the owerpowering bass, slightly raised lower midrange and reduced a little bit the area around 1,5 - 2,5 kHz, thus saving the day.

 

[InfiniteJester]

I recently got Ziigaat Doscinco IEMs that have this meta (JM-1) kind of warm, laid back and bassy tuning and to my ears they sounded a bit dull out of the box lacking energy at 3-8 kHz area. Fortunately PEQ exists and I added about 2 dB at this particular area (still about 2 dB lower than required by the fatiguing Harman target), reduced the owerpowering bass, slightly raised lower midrange and reduced a little bit the area around 1,5 - 2,5 kHz, thus saving the day.

You may like more the SoundGuys target than the JM-1. Everything gets named meta tuning, but they have actually key differences.

A comparison of in-ear headphone target curves for the Brüel & Kjær Head & Torso Simulator Type 5128

Sean Olive provided a free download here https://aes2.org/publications/elibrary-page/?id=22696 TL;DR SoundGuys and Harman 2019 equivalent targets were more prefered than three other targets. It's noteworth that these two most prefered target are the most different from each other, of than...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Comparison between JM-1 and SoundGuys cortesy of @markanini.

 

[Klonatans]

You may like more the SoundGuys target than the JM-1. Everything gets named meta tuning, but they have actually key differences.

Thanks for sharing the Sound Guys target. I will check it out on Squig.

I find JM-1 a little bit too safe, too relaxed, lacking dynamic contrasts and sparkle, especially in electronic music (techno, IDM), while on the other hand Harman tuning is too shouty/borderline sibilant for longer periods of listening, at least for me. I only use Harman target as a reference to tune IEMs and headphones to my liking.

 

[MinimumPhase]

You may like more the SoundGuys target than the JM-1. Everything gets named meta tuning, but they have actually key differences.

A comparison of in-ear headphone target curves for the Brüel & Kjær Head & Torso Simulator Type 5128

Sean Olive provided a free download here https://aes2.org/publications/elibrary-page/?id=22696 TL;DR SoundGuys and Harman 2019 equivalent targets were more prefered than three other targets. It's noteworth that these two most prefered target are the most different from each other, of than...

www.audiosciencereview.com

View attachment 397344

Comparison between JM-1 and SoundGuys cortesy of @markanini.

FWIW, I have no idea why JM-1 has been given that much bass in this comparison, but I'd really encourage people to adjust the bass to taste. I do think the SoundGuys target has a pretty sensible level of bass as a starting point. As for the upper treble, this is likely also a region where you'll need to adjust to taste, the amount of variation between individuals here is extremely high, and I find measurements in this region have pretty poor correlation with my own perception.

Please keep in mind that JM-1 is not a "target". It's an HRTF that can be used as the basis for a target. If you want, you can use it to get something basically identical to SoundGuys (which I find slightly too warm) or you can adjust it to your own taste in plenty of other ways.

 

[MinimumPhase]

I recently got Ziigaat Doscinco IEMs that have this meta (JM-1) kind of warm, laid back and bassy tuning and to my ears they sounded a bit dull out of the box lacking energy at 3-8 kHz area. Fortunately PEQ exists and I added about 2 dB at this particular area (still about 2 dB lower than required by the fatiguing Harman target), reduced the owerpowering bass, slightly raised lower midrange and reduced a little bit the area around 1,5 - 2,5 kHz, thus saving the day.

I would not consider the Ziigaat Doscinco to be close to the "new meta" at all.

 

[scolfaro]

FWIW, I have no idea why JM-1 has been given that much bass in this comparison, but I'd really encourage people to adjust the bass to taste. I do think the SoundGuys target has a pretty sensible level of bass as a starting point. As for the upper treble, this is likely also a region where you'll need to adjust to taste, the amount of variation between individuals here is extremely high, and I find measurements in this region have pretty poor correlation with my own perception.

Please keep in mind that JM-1 is not a "target". It's an HRTF that can be used as the basis for a target. If you want, you can use it to get something basically identical to SoundGuys (which I find slightly too warm) or you can adjust it to your own taste in plenty of other ways.

I am not sure how the Hexa with foam-tips relates to that target, but after a few days listening and working with it, I'm extremely impressed. It provides me some insights in all stages of production, and most importantly, all the impressions seem to translate to my other monitoring systems. My adjustments to it were extremely minimal (1 cut and 2 boosts, all bells with 0.5-1db). No other headphones or IEMS were that close to what I perceive as "neutral" out of the box.

 

[Klonatans]

I would not consider the Ziigaat Doscinco to be close to the "new meta" at all.

You are right. Unlike JM-1, Doscinco have a massive midbass and subbass boost and don't have a lower midrange elevation, however there's a clear ear gain compensation dip in 3-8 kHz area.

 

[digitalfrost]

So what would be a cheap IEM that is close to JM-1?

I'm probably a strange person because I like to be at the lower end of the preference bounds for ear gain and treble: https://graph.hangout.audio/iem/5128/?share=JM-1_Target&bass=4&tilt=-1&treble=-4&ear=-2

This sounds good to me with my Kiwi Quintets.

 

[Jimbob54]

So what would be a cheap IEM that is close to JM-1?

I'm probably a strange person because I like to be at the lower end of the preference bounds for ear gain and treble: https://graph.hangout.audio/iem/5128/?share=JM-1_Target&bass=4&tilt=-1&treble=-4&ear=-2

This sounds good to me with my Kiwi Quintets.

Hexa is spoken about in that context. Not a perfect match but in that arena.

Depends on your definition of cheap too of course.

 

[anaveragebear]

So what would be a cheap IEM that is close to JM-1?

I'm probably a strange person because I like to be at the lower end of the preference bounds for ear gain and treble: https://graph.hangout.audio/iem/5128/?share=JM-1_Target&bass=4&tilt=-1&treble=-4&ear=-2

This sounds good to me with my Kiwi Quintets.

The Audiosense Aq4 seems to match that target adjustment best (on that graphing tool), though you'd probably want at least one EQ filter to pull down some harshness in the 5-7kHz area...does 180 USD count as cheap for you?

Edit: On second look, it will be less than that, because the only way to get it is to find one secondhand.

 

[InfiniteJester]

So what would be a cheap IEM that is close to JM-1?

I'm probably a strange person because I like to be at the lower end of the preference bounds for ear gain and treble: https://graph.hangout.audio/iem/5128/?share=JM-1_Target&bass=4&tilt=-1&treble=-4&ear=-2

This sounds good to me with my Kiwi Quintets.

EW300 DSP.

 

[scolfaro]

EW300 DSP.

Sorry, I had the non-DSP version of them things, and sent it back after about a week.

The EW300 performs, to my ears, way worse than even the 7Hz Zero 2. It also has perceptually nothing to do with the Hexas. If that's a reaction to solely analyzing a graph, assuming the EW300 measures close to the Hexa (which it doesn't), then it should be remeasured.

The Simgot's only had good bass, and nothing else. Low-mids were obliterated, as were the mids, nearly not there any more. With the Hexa they are quite full. The high-mids were edging on shouty, then the highs were first simply "gone", then back at the high-highs with a very bad zing to compensate for all that destruction. So papery hats that manage to drill another hole in your head, and everything else beneath that buried under a metric ton of (good) bass with some baby-screams poking out as "mids", that can't be any kind of new meta.

 

[InfiniteJester]

Sorry, I had the non-DSP version of them things, and sent it back after about a week.

The EW300 performs, to my ears, way worse than even the 7Hz Zero 2. It also has perceptually nothing to do with the Hexas. If that's a reaction to solely analyzing a graph, assuming the EW300 measures close to the Hexa (which it doesn't), then it should be remeasured.

The Simgot's only had good bass, and nothing else. Low-mids were obliterated, as were the mids, nearly not there any more. With the Hexa they are quite full. The high-mids were edging on shouty, then the highs were first simply "gone", then back at the high-highs with a very bad zing to compensate for all that destruction. So papery hats that manage to drill another hole in your head, and everything else beneath that buried under a metric ton of (good) bass with some baby-screams poking out as "mids", that can't be any kind of new meta.

I think they sound fantastic. But I have been wanting to try the Hexas for a while. Hard to justify spending even more money on IEMs, though.

Maybe it is a fit issue? The original tips are absolutely terrible.

 

[scolfaro]

I think they sound fantastic. But I have been wanting to try the Hexas for a while. Hard to justify spending even more money on IEMs, though.

Maybe it is a fit issue? The original tips are absolutely terrible.

Haha that's not impossible, but I thought they were extremely comfortable and got a seal right away. I thought they sounded great for about three days, mostly because the low-end was spot-on.

Then I tried to mix with them to see if I could draw any information out, and realized the mids were tucked away, out of discernible reach. The first thing I went for was to tame something around 3kHz, and realized it didn't need taming at all, not just that, all my references had that zing around that area. I swapped the 7Hz for it and noticed the mids were back in full and not sharp. It also became clear it's kind of easy to achieve separation if you carve chunks out of the spectrum into the void.

The bottom line is they may be "fun", but nowhere near natural. That cheap trick (to my ears) was repeated twice, away with all the mids, in with the pinna, away with the highs, compensation on "air" to piercing, and you've got two massive troughs, three crests.

I don't want to diss a product you like, because in the end there's a good deal of subjectivity and ear canal differences at play, but the 7Hz is to me simply better altogether as an IEM, and the Hexa gives me a full picture especially when compared to the carved out image from the ew300, like no contest here even if they may at first seem "boring."

 

[InfiniteJester]

Haha that's not impossible, but I thought they were extremely comfortable and got a seal right away. I thought they sounded great for about three days, mostly because the low-end was spot-on.

Then I tried to mix with them to see if I could draw any information out, and realized the mids were tucked away, out of discernible reach. The first thing I went for was to tame something around 3kHz, and realized it didn't need taming at all, not just that, all my references had that zing around that area. I swapped the 7Hz for it and noticed the mids were back in full and not sharp. It also became clear it's kind of easy to achieve separation if you carve chunks out of the spectrum into the void.

The bottom line is they may be "fun", but nowhere near natural. That cheap trick (to my ears) was repeated twice, away with all the mids, in with the pinna, away with the highs, compensation on "air" to piercing, and you've got two massive troughs, three crests.

I don't want to diss a product you like, because in the end there's a good deal of subjectivity and ear canal differences at play, but the 7Hz is to me simply better altogether as an IEM, and the Hexa gives me a full picture especially when compared to the carved out image from the ew300, like no contest here even if they may at first seem "boring."

I find surprising that the mids were perceived as that much different.

I have both the Zero:2s and the EW300s DSP, and the EW300s sound much better to me. But it is probably mainly a thing of fit. The Zero:2s are too tiny and I can't insert them in my ears correctly no matter what I try. The EW300s are a little bit better, although not perfect, in that regard for me with the Spinfits W1.

Maaaaybe the treble extension has also something to do with it, but hard to say for sure. The Zero:2s do sound "boxy" for me.

 

[scolfaro]

I find surprising that the mids were perceived as that much different.

View attachment 397880

I have both the Zero:2s and the EW300s DSP, and the EW300s sound much better to me. But it is probably mainly a thing of fit. The Zero:2s are too tiny and I can't insert them in my ears correctly no matter what I try. The EW300s are a little bit better, although not perfect, in that regard for me with the Spinfits W1.

View attachment 397884

Interesting! Both sets fit right away for me (7Hz and Simgot), with their respective stock tips (I'm almost always getting a seal with the medium sized ones).

The Hexa was more labored and only the foam tips fit, same as with the Reds, that I also returned for similar reasons to the EW300, although I must add the mids and highs were much more elegant for me there. The Reds were also past my acceptable nozzle diameter.

Maybe unit variance or an intolerable ear canal resonance, but those bumps above 13kHz on the Simgots were painful and almost got some Tinnitus going for me. Another possibility is compression or crossover issues, so that they're not sounding like they should in the levels I listen to (always quieter than these super loud measurements).

If I had to judge what I got when listening to them (I only accepted the silver nozzle), you got to carve out everything between 200-600Hz, push down everything between 1.200-2.000, push up everything between 2.5kHz and 3.5kHz, push down again 4-9kHz, then start going up until unbearable 15kHz. I don't get this rollercoaster with anything else I've ever put in my ears

Subs and bass were classy though. Solid and just "correct" sounding.

 

[scolfaro]

But I think I got the first "bingo" with your "boxy" Impression, the low-mids of the Zero are "correctly" (I say with quotes because there's mid-bass bleed there, the transition into the mids in the Simgots is much cleaner) placed so worse recordings sound "bad", whereas the Simgot felt so carved there that nearly anything could sound good on it (except male vocals going lower...).

And I also notice your hangout measurements were done at 70db, so it is indeed puzzling why my experience would differ so much... Could be treble extension bringing my focus upwards on the spectrum, and powerful bass pulling it down leaving "nothing" remarkable in the mids apart from the sharp and hollow pinna.

 

[InfiniteJester]

But I think I got the first "bingo" with your "boxy" Impression, the low-mids of the Zero are "correctly" (I say with quotes because there's mid-bass bleed there, the transition into the mids in the Simgots is much cleaner) placed so worse recordings sound "bad", whereas the Simgot felt so carved there that nearly anything could sound good on it (except male vocals going lower...).

And I also notice your hangout measurements were done at 70db, so it is indeed puzzling why my experience would differ so much... Could be treble extension bringing my focus upwards on the spectrum, and powerful bass pulling it down leaving "nothing" remarkable in the mids apart from the sharp and hollow pinna.

I don't think the usual tracks I use to evaluate IEMs are badly recorded (except maybe the metal ones; which, to be fair, are usually the ones that show me the most glaring issues of an IEM).

But you can evaluate them yourself:

 

[scolfaro]

Cool, a lot of prog

The last one is a little too thick in the low mids to my tastes, that one feels a bit off, all the others are definitely fine, in context I can understand why you'd have a more favorable opinion of the 300 than me, these are generally quieter and softer masters going towards vinyl loudness and dynamics, and my impression of scooped and harsh will not be the case whereas the bleed in the 7Hz may indeed give you a boxy Impression.

I'll have a quick listen through tomorrow with the Hexa and the others and share my impressions (and some of my references too ).

 

[digitalfrost]

Kiwi KE4 looks pretty good but I'm not gonna buy another set of 200$ IEMs when I can EQ.

Crinacle's 5128 Graph Tool | Hangout.Audio

Compare graphs from the world's largest public database of ITU-T P.57 Type 4.3 IEM measurements, maintained by Crinacle.

graph.hangout.audio