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Has DSP turned us into audio neurotics? [rant]

Should we perhaps discuss manual EQ and automatic room correction separately? They are two very different things. Commenting on "DSP" or "EQ" in positive or negative terms without being clear about which one we are talking about makes for a confusing discussion.
 
I agree, the potential improvements are undeniable. The practical situation is however not as clear.

If loudspeakers were to be all sold standard without crossovers and come with a set of driver terminals, a comprehensive set of "installation/factory measurement data" matched to each speaker, that could be loaded into a DSP based amplification system, all would be well. Keep the amplifiers and DSP separate to the speakers. Costs of new speakers would be minimal as you aren't constantly buying yet another DSP/Amplifier unit, reliability is higher and you can change out the DSP/Amp unit when it becomes "obsolete" with a new one without needing to change speakers again.
That is how i build my diy speakers today, even subs have an external amp and dsp (or passive crossover), that easy can be replaced by a more up to date model when the need is there. Those plate amps build into the speaker look nice and tidy, but it mostly means that you can throw away the speaker after a decade because the amp died and there is no replacement...
 
Those plate amps build into the speaker look nice and tidy, but it mostly means that you can throw away the speaker after a decade because the amp died and there is no replacement...
Although I doubt it will happen, it would be great if speaker manufacturers would commit to having plate amplifiers with the same form factor available for an extended period of time.

My Velodyne subwoofer started humming in 2003. At that time it was about 7 years old. I contacted Velodyne and they told me where to take it locally for repair. The plate amplifier was replaced with a newer model, and it fit perfect. It ended up costing a lot less than I anticipated considering the price of the subwoofer new. I have been using it since and have not had any further issues.

Side note: The amplifier damage may have been due to a power surge from a lightning strike that killed a pine tree next to my house, but I don't recall the timing as it was so long ago. I used to keep the subwoofer power switch always on and just use the remote to turn it off. Now I have it connected to a voice activated/WiFi enabled switch that completely removes power when I turn it off. Also, I now have much beefier surge protectors on my breaker panels.
 
Another aspect of DSP that I find worthwhile, for those so inclined, is to experiment with different target curves. I started with the Harman curve, but after listening to that for a while I just found it too bass heavy and a bit bright for modern recordings. Then I experimented with different target curves until I found one that, overall, sounds best to me in my room and with my system (it slopes down linearly from 100Hz up at a rate of -1dB/oct). I use that most of the time. If I am listening to an older track that needs more bass, I press a button for a different tuning and there it is.

People should stop experimenting with "target curves" and instead...
  1. EQ the speakers if the speaker's frequency response needs adjustments above 400-500 Hz. This should be based on anechoic or gated measurements of the loudspeakers, or leave this range without adjustments if you are happy with the overall tonality.
  2. EQ the frequency response below 400-500 Hz based on the in-room measurements done from the listening position. It's highly unlikely that your room doesn't need any adjustments for this range.
  3. Adjust the overall tonal balance with broadband adjustments to their liking.
When EQ is done right, I bet no one will prefer the sound without the EQ adjustments.
 
A certain percentage of audiophiles has always been neurotic. Some become electronic designers, others busily destroy otherwise perfectly functional gear, others twist knobs endlessly. But I think the incidence of audiophilus nervosa has always been about the same. There are those who desire to have the sound of "live" music out of their recordings and gear and they are doomed to failure.
 
People should stop experimenting with "target curves" and instead...
  1. EQ the speakers if the speaker's frequency response needs adjustments above 400-500 Hz. This should be based on anechoic or gated measurements of the loudspeakers, or leave this range without adjustments if you are happy with the overall tonality.
  2. EQ the frequency response below 400-500 Hz based on the in-room measurements done from the listening position. It's highly unlikely that your room doesn't need any adjustments for this range.
  3. Adjust the overall tonal balance with broadband adjustments to their liking.
When EQ is done right, I bet no one will prefer the sound without the EQ adjustments.

I liked the message but must admit I only do (2) and leave the rest alone. For some odd reason, I have never quite enjoyed EQ on speakers or amplifiers... makes me think if I don't like the way they are, then I shouldn't have bought them to begin with. :) I am also not 100% convinced that other measurements aren't negatively impacted if you correct for frequency linearity without retesting stuff like distortion and such.

Then again some might say that reveals me as a neurotic as per the topic's title. :-D
 
People should stop experimenting with "target curves" and instead...
  1. EQ the speakers if the speaker's frequency response needs adjustments above 400-500 Hz. This should be based on anechoic or gated measurements of the loudspeakers, or leave this range without adjustments if you are happy with the overall tonality.
  2. EQ the frequency response below 400-500 Hz based on the in-room measurements done from the listening position. It's highly unlikely that your room doesn't need any adjustments for this range.
  3. Adjust the overall tonal balance with broadband adjustments to their liking.
When EQ is done right, I bet no one will prefer the sound without the EQ adjustments.
I mostly disagree. The only instance where I would agree is if someone has very neutral speakers, and a room that is symmetric and very well acoustically treated.

As an example, my family room is not symmetrical. Moreover, there is no way the boss (a.k.a., my beautiful wife) will allow any acoustic treatment other than a throw rug and furniture. The measured frequency responses of my speakers at my listening position do not correlate well, and imaging suffers. Tuning both speakers to a tuning curve, measured at my listening position, improves the imaging. Indeed, with DSP they image very well.

For decades I listened to my stereo systems without DSP. A couple of years ago I finally got around to trying it out, and I am not going back. The sound improvements are too significant to ignore. And, it doesn't have to be expensive. In my family room I have a midiDSP Flex HTx in an all active 2.1 setup, which isn't cheap, but in my office I use a Raspberry Pi with CamillaDSP, which is very inexpensive and performs very well.
 
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I liked the message but must admit I only do (2) and leave the rest alone. For some odd reason, I have never quite enjoyed EQ on speakers or amplifiers... makes me think if I don't like the way they are, then I shouldn't have bought them to begin with. :) I am also not 100% convinced that other measurements aren't negatively impacted if you correct for frequency linearity without retesting stuff like distortion and such.

Then again some might say that reveals me as a neurotic as per the topic's title. :-D

It's the same for me, I keep the EQ adjustments to the bass range as I'm happy with the overall tonal response of my speakers. :)
 
The measured frequency responses of my speakers at my listening position do not correlate well, and imaging suffers. Tuning both speakers to a tuning curve, measured at my listening position, improves the imaging. Indeed, with DSP they image very well.
Measured how?
That's the big misunderstanding and the biggest barrier.

Takes a lot and expensive gear to do it right plus methods and formal education.
A mic does NOT hear what we hear.
 
There are those who desire to have the sound of "live" music out of their recordings and gear and they are doomed to failure.

Hey, I resemble that comment! :p
 
REW


BSEE. Many years experience designing passive filters, inductors and capacitors, both for audio and RF, and a few years designing speakers many moons ago.
That's all very good but they don't come close to a formal method of measuring and correcting a room,that's a whole other area.
Even HATS comes close but it needs more.And it takes a lot more than a steady-state measurement or a random MMM one.

Is like comparing an AP with my E-MU in the electrical equivalent.

The safest method is correcting anechoically up high (IF the speakers can be corrected,many can't) and that's it,Dr Toole has written all that many times.
 
The safest method is correcting anechoically up high (IF the speakers can be corrected,many can't) and that's it,Dr Toole has written all that many times.
I agree when, acoustically, the room is well suited. Some rooms, such as mine, have major acoustic issues. DSP made significant improvements toward mitigating those issues, at least to an extent.

We do not only hear the anechoic response of a speaker. The room in which the speakers are placed has a significant impact on how they sound, even above 500Hz, especially when there are things like glass tables, large windows on one side of the room, etc., which are some of the issues I face. DSP has helped alleviate those issues. If you don't believe me, you are welcome to come visit and take a listen. I live in Florida and have guest rooms. Come in the winter when the weather is nice. :)
 
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I think there may be some neurosis with modern DSP and all of that signal processing. I am old school. System I am listening to right now is composed of an MCS 3842 integrated amplifier, a Carver C-9 unit, a Fisher ten ban EQ and some two way speakers that were assembled from a kit in Celestion Ditton 110 boxes. The EQ curve that I use is very mild. No huge smiley face for me. How did I get that curve? I used my ears and went through each slider one by one, cutting the band all of the way to the bottom of the slider travel and then moving it up until it sounds right. Got me this curve that I enjoy. Is it perfectly flat at the listening position? I doubt it and frankly I don't care because it sounds good to me and that is what is important. And I trust my ears. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the CD player is a Panasonic portable player from maybe 1995. Sounds great.

Now if someone uses their DSP and gets good results that they like, then good for them. It just isn't for me.
 

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I agree when, acoustically, the room is well suited. Some rooms, such as mine, have major acoustic issues. DSP made significant improvements toward mitigating those issues, at least to an extent.

We do not only hear the anechoic response of a speaker. The room in which the speakers are placed has a significant impact on how they sound, even above 500Hz, especially when there are things like glass tables, large windows on one side of the room, etc., which are some of the issues I face. DSP has helped alleviate those issues. If you don't believe me, you are welcome to come visit and take a listen. I live in Florida and have guest rooms. Come in the winter when the weather is nice. :)
Human brains can hear through the room by filtering out reflections, that is the hard part of DSP, what the MIC "hears" and what we "hear" are not the same thing. Dr. Toole made a great post explaining it without having to buy his book. The attachment to this post is gold. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...s-your-favorite-house-curve.2382/post-1970907
 
Human brains can hear through the room by filtering out reflections, that is the hard part of DSP, what the MIC "hears" and what we "hear" are not the same thing. Dr. Toole made a great post explaining it without having to buy his book. The attachment to this post is gold. https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...s-your-favorite-house-curve.2382/post-1970907
As stated in the cited post: "... the room curve in typical rooms will have a gradual, quite linear, downward tilt above about 500 Hz." (Emphasis added).

What if someone does not have a typical room? My room must not be typical - my in-room response certainly is not "quite linear" above 500 Hz.

I wonder how many people advocating against DSP have really spent a significant amount of time experimenting with it in their system. Now, it certainly is not for the crowd that wants to plug and play, but for those who enjoy the process (or at least don't mind it), it can be a very good option. I have had good results. In that regard, I do not foresee myself ever again not using DSP unless I have a room specifically treated to provide an optimal acoustic environment, and I have speakers that are very neutral both on and off axis.

If anyone wants to hear the results, reach out to me.
 
No, it was more a case of just not feeling the need - my L/C/R speakers go plenty deep for me, and not wanting the additional hassle of a subwoofer. I don’t like the look of subwoofers., I find the more boxes cluttering a space, hard to find a good place to put them at least in my room . But I finally did get around to buying two subwoofers to try with my music system. as mentioned earlier in the thread, I ultimately got rid of them.

Sorry, but I can't help but think that you never really got your subwoofers to interact seamlessly with your main speakers.

In the same way, as I would bet that everyone would prefer EQ when done right, I also believe everyone would choose a full-range sound over a limited-range sound as long as the subwoofers are seamlessly integrated with the main speakers. I mean, whenever a limited-range sound is preferred over a full-range sound, it means it's caused by outside factors such as not being seamlessly integrated with the main loudspeakers, or it's not seamlessly integrated with the listening room (and that's when EQ comes in handy). :)
 
? Are we tweaking things that we never heard before, or didn't care, just cause we can? I'm finding myself increasingly drawn into the DSP rabbit hole (I refer to 2ch, HT/video is another matter). This distrubs me, cause I think my system already sounds damn good. The perfect has become the enemy of the good. God save us all. :facepalm:
That can be true about any aspect of this passion. Guys are spending Tens of thousands of dollars on a obsolete technology (vinyl) forever tweaking, adjusting, and messing about with things from needle angles, cartridge loading, platter matt materials, cleaning fluids, etc, etc, etc, To in the end maybe get sound quality that might approach a $50 used CD player. You can dive off the deep end of just about anything, don't turn anything into an obsession.
With DSP the good news is you can run an automated correction program like Audyssey or Dirac and in a 1/2 hour end up with a very well tuned response.

"The perfect has become the enemy of the good"
Very true, but that path can lead to insanity. :p
 
...
"The perfect has become the enemy of the good"
Very true, but that path can lead to insanity. :p
Indeed. And the perfect is unattainable. No floor or wall in any listening room is perfectly horizontal or vertical, meaning over time things will imperceptibly move and what not.

We live in a world of compromises and we live in the allegory of the cave. :-D
 
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