Has DSP turned us into audio neurotics? [rant]

[restorer-john]

So I got rid of it all and I was happy to see it all go and get back to a simpler system.

My experience is eventually everyone gravitates back to a 2 channel stereo reproduction system with a competent pair of passive loudspeakers.

 

[GXAlan]

My experience is eventually everyone gravitates back to a 2 channel stereo reproduction system with a competent pair of passive loudspeakers.

But isn’t that a reflection of the limitations of historical active loudspeakers, and historical multichannel content?

 

[restorer-john]

But isn’t that a reflection of the limitations of historical active loudspeakers, and historical multichannel content?

In my opinion, no. But perhaps it will be, going forward for people born into the all-in-one age.

I think it's more about simplifying your life, your living spaces, and going back to to finding that initial "joy" we all had at the start of the interest in music/sound.

You could offer me the most expensive home theatre build in the world and I'd strip it all out for a nice two channel system. There's a massive house down the street where we supervised the conversion of indoor squash courts, sauna, gym and garage on the bottom floor to a $300,000+ home theatre build back in the day. The new owners have stripped it all out for, wait for it, a gym, a sauna, a day spa and large games room. Everything goes full circle.

 

[restorer-john]

But isn’t that a reflection of the limitations of historical active loudspeakers

Take the vintage Meridian DSP-5000 loudspeakers. They were a US$7000pr design, way ahead of their time and they are pretty much all in landfill in 2024. Lost remotes, dead amplifiers, inability to connect to modern stuff etc.

The current crop of expensive actives will suffer the same fate. Failed internals, no parts, defunct companies, obsolete software, unsupported apps and incompatibilities with the ever changing computers and networks they need to really work like the promises made when they are sold. Actives have a terrible resale value, so forget trying to recoup anything much going forward. Nobody wants 2nd hand, obsoleted active speakers that lack whatever the latest streaming option is.

Passive speakers just work for many decades. With any amplifier.

 

[terryforsythe]

My experience is eventually everyone gravitates back to a 2 channel stereo reproduction system with a competent pair of passive loudspeakers.

2-channel - I agree.

Passive loudspeakers - I disagree; I won't ever go back to using passive filters in speakers used in my primary audio systems. Passive filters have too many limitations compared to active filters - load dependency (and speakers have complex load impedance with large variations), core losses if cores are used in the inductors, DCR, etc.

 

[MattHooper]

My experience is eventually everyone gravitates back to a 2 channel stereo reproduction system with a competent pair of passive loudspeakers.

If it happens to me, it will only be due to eventual infirmity.

I have my two channel system, which I love.

But I also have a pretty big complex Home Theatre system, and I also listen to music in surround. I hope to continue experiencing that into my old age.

Though if we were only talking about one system and I only owned a music system, then yes it would be good old passive speakers without much more fuss.

I never see myself going to active speakers, or solid amplification, so I’m pretty set in my ways.

 

[restorer-john]

Passive loudspeakers - I disagree; I won't ever go back to using passive filters in speakers used in my primary audio systems. Passive filters have too many limitations compared to active filters - load dependency (and speakers have complex load impedance with large variations), core losses if cores are used in the inductors, DCR, etc.

I agree, the potential improvements are undeniable. The practical situation is however not as clear.

If loudspeakers were to be all sold standard without crossovers and come with a set of driver terminals, a comprehensive set of "installation/factory measurement data" matched to each speaker, that could be loaded into a DSP based amplification system, all would be well. Keep the amplifiers and DSP separate to the speakers. Costs of new speakers would be minimal as you aren't constantly buying yet another DSP/Amplifier unit, reliability is higher and you can change out the DSP/Amp unit when it becomes "obsolete" with a new one without needing to change speakers again.

 

[restorer-john]

If it happens to me, it will only be due to eventual infirmity.

That's exactly what I was going to say. When did anyone last see a multi-channel system in a retirement home room? I've seen some nice little 2 channel bookshelf based 2 channel setups owned by retirees when I used to visit my grandma back in the day.

 

[terryforsythe]

I agree, the potential improvements are undeniable. The practical situation is however not as clear.

If loudspeakers were to be all sold standard without crossovers and come with a set of driver terminals, a comprehensive set of "installation/factory measurement data" matched to each speaker, that could be loaded into a DSP based amplification system, all would be well. Keep the amplifiers and DSP separate to the speakers. Costs of new speakers would be minimal as you aren't constantly buying yet another DSP/Amplifier unit, reliability is higher and you can change out the DSP/Amp unit when it becomes "obsolete" with a new one without needing to change speakers again.

I removed the passive crossovers from the speakers in my family room. I don't envision most people wanting to do that, though.

 

[Anton S]

My experience is eventually everyone gravitates back to a 2 channel stereo reproduction system with a competent pair of passive loudspeakers.

Only people who are actually doing multichannel wrong.

 

[Keith_W]

Plodding through all four pages of this thread to date, I've discovered, unsurprisingly, that responses run the full gamut, from unceremonious rejection of DSP to full embrace. Nothing like a solid consensus.

Well the argument in favour of DSP for me is pretty simple.

1. Toole says that good bass is 30% of sound quality.
2. If you don't have DSP, you are forgoing a very important tool to get good bass. IMO it is second to multiple subwoofers in terms of importance.

And this is just for 2 channel systems. For HT systems, DSP is mandatory.

 

[MattHooper]

Well the argument in favour of DSP for me is pretty simple.

1. Toole says that good bass is 30% of sound quality.

Fair enough, but I think there’s all sorts of caveats and niggling details to be unravelled there.

Ultimately, this is going to come down to how much an individual enjoys the music and sound quality. So for instance, I have our car stereo settings mostly flat, but when my rap-loving son gets in the car, he turns everything into a smile EQ. I find the bass far overblown, but he loves it that way.

It’s true that you can put people into artificial study scenarios, in which they get to rigorously compare different sound profiles, And when they are thinking THAT way, focussing on the things researchers want them to focus on, you’ll get more uniformity.

But back out in the real world, outside of those conditions there’s all sorts of factors that affect how somebody engages with something.

There are people I know who get deeply lost into movies and TV shows, completely compelled, watching them on their laptop or even their phone! But my own preferences have been conditioned by my own interest and experience (film nut and Home Theatre nut) to where that’s just blasphemy. I simply could not tolerate a movie (any movie I cared about) on such gear.

So back to bass: I can imagine that if I’m put in to blind control conditions, comparing loudspeakers, my preferences for base response will be within the mean.

Back in the real world, I like my bass response to be deep and generally even.
And I generally get that in my system. But is it perfect? No sometimes I can hear a room node bulge. But that doesn’t stop me from completely swooning over the sound.

I guess what I’m getting at is this: audiophiles have been putting together systems for what? Around 60 years?
And they have been having amazing, blissful musical and Sonic experiences well before DSP came along, or became as ubiquitous as it is today. Despite not having DSP were they on the whole not enjoying themselves as much as we are? Not having equitably happy listening experiences? Maybe “30 percent less happy”? I highly doubt that.

This is no argument against DSP, which is a wonderful tool, which clearly gets many people to satisfying results. But it’s also another tool to allow us audiophiles to obsess more about some particular areas of performance. A lot of people don’t need it to be extremely happy with the sound of their system, and it’s one of those things that in the real world may float the boat of one person much more than another.

And this is just for 2 channel systems. For HT systems, DSP is mandatory.

I generally prefer room correction off for my HT system. But then again it just uses Odyssey. Once you get into room correction, here comes all the different advice about “ you should really use x,y,z…” and down the rabbit hole one can go.

Many insist that subwoofers are mandatory for Home Theatre as well. I don’t use one of those either.

 

[Chrispy]

Some I suppose. Nicer tools to have than not have.

 

[Chrispy]

Many insist that subwoofers are mandatory for Home Theatre as well. I don’t use one of those either.

Need more than one, that's where you've gone wrong? Hard to generalize, depends on room, speakers, spl goals, etc.

 

[MattHooper]

Need more than one, that's where you've gone wrong? Hard to generalize, depends on room, speakers, spl goals, etc.

No, it was more a case of just not feeling the need - my L/C/R speakers go plenty deep for me, and not wanting the additional hassle of a subwoofer. I don’t like the look of subwoofers., I find the more boxes cluttering a space, hard to find a good place to put them at least in my room . But I finally did get around to buying two subwoofers to try with my music system. as mentioned earlier in the thread, I ultimately got rid of them.

 

[GXAlan]

Take the vintage Meridian DSP-5000 loudspeakers... Lost remotes, dead amplifiers, inability to connect to modern stuff etc.

The current crop of expensive actives will suffer the same fate. Failed internals, no parts, defunct companies, obsolete software, unsupported apps and incompatibilities with the ever changing computers and networks they need to really work like the promises made when they are sold.

Passive speakers just work for many decades. With any amplifier.

I am probably justifying my own purchases as some of the greatest piano manufacturers in the world have gone out of business so there is no guarantee that premium audio companies are going to be around.

+1 on streaming all in one type speakers. Same problem with AES67, Dante, WiFi generations. Those are sadly disposable.

But what about stuff that’s properly designed for reliability and repairability?

Based upon sound as well as measurements as well as company reputation, I have basically sold all my passive speakers (other than my Magnepans) for a full Meyer Sound setup.

They are profitable and have established themselves as one of the big 3, focusing on commercial theaters and venues, so they are already less subject to the vagaries of audiophile trends. They have been profitable operating out of Berkeley, California where labor is expensive, real estate is expensive, and taxes are expensive.

There is clearly risk when John and Helen Meyer retire/pass away as can be seen with plenty of audio companies out there, but I have to imagine that the company culture is robust enough to survive a few more generations of leadership.

Older products like the Meyer HD1 ran for 25 years in continuous production and even though it is discontinued for 10 years, at least in 2024 they will continue to rebuild woofers that have failed and tweeters that have failed. The amps have been reliable but they presumably stock old parts, Accuphase style.

Even among their speakers, if you look at their parts you can see thoughtful reuse of components. 10” woofer on their full range speaker and 10” woofer on their subwoofer is the same driver with different DSP.

That's exactly what I was going to say. When did anyone last see a multi-channel system in a retirement home room? I've seen some nice little 2 channel bookshelf based 2 channel setups owned by retirees when I used to visit my grandma back in the day.

Great point! The exhilarating effect of proper multichannel recording with proper multichannel playback system is likely to trigger heart attacks and strokes from the adrenaline rush.

 

[Descartes]

I am done chasing the best sound, KEF Blade 2 will bed good for the next 10 years or longer hopefully

 

[Descartes]

I am probably justifying my own purchases as some of the greatest piano manufacturers in the world have gone out of business so there is no guarantee that premium audio companies are going to be around.

+1 on streaming all in one type speakers. Same problem with AES67, Dante, WiFi generations. Those are sadly disposable.

But what about stuff that’s properly designed for reliability and repairability?

Based upon sound as well as measurements as well as company reputation, I have basically sold all my passive speakers (other than my Magnepans) for a full Meyer Sound setup.

They are profitable and have established themselves as one of the big 3, focusing on commercial theaters and venues, so they are already less subject to the vagaries of audiophile trends. They have been profitable operating out of Berkeley, California where labor is expensive, real estate is expensive, and taxes are expensive.

There is clearly risk when John and Helen Meyer retire/pass away as can be seen with plenty of audio companies out there, but I have to imagine that the company culture is robust enough to survive a few more generations of leadership.

Older products like the Meyer HD1 ran for 25 years in continuous production and even though it is discontinued for 10 years, at least in 2024 they will continue to rebuild woofers that have failed and tweeters that have failed. The amps have been reliable but they presumably stock old parts, Accuphase style.

Even among their speakers, if you look at their parts you can see thoughtful reuse of components. 10” woofer on their full range speaker and 10” woofer on their subwoofer is the same driver with different DSP.




Great point! The exhilarating effect of proper multichannel recording with proper multichannel playback system is likely to trigger heart attacks and strokes from the adrenaline rush.

Love multi channel music!

 

[terryforsythe]

Another aspect of DSP that I find worthwhile, for those so inclined, is to experiment with different target curves. I started with the Harman curve, but after listening to that for a while I just found it too bass heavy and a bit bright for modern recordings. Then I experimented with different target curves until I found one that, overall, sounds best to me in my room and with my system (it slopes down linearly from 100Hz up at a rate of -1dB/oct). I use that most of the time. If I am listening to an older track that needs more bass, I press a button for a different tuning and there it is.

 

[Joe Smith]

Yeah, I don't go there, just have absolutely no interest in DSP. I am used to good two-channel basic sound and now my ears are really the primary limitation of my system, as I see it. Have never been a fan of subwoofers. But y'all have at it, seems to take a good deal of time and thought...