Harman To Acquire B&W, Denon, Polk And Marantz From Masimo In $350 Million Deal

[watchnerd]

Oh I don’t really care about the disc drive. That would be something i wouldn’t use much . But I like the design / dsd upsampling , the Marantz dac and its a roon endpoint ) .. if it only had Dirac

You could do it all with a MiniDSP for Dirac and Raspberry Pi for the Roon endpoint.

 

[amirm]

Better get a Marantz 30n SACD player now or wait for what Harman is cooking?

It will take at least a couple of years for their thumbprint to make an impression. If you need something, get it now before tariffs hit the new inventory.

 

[Snoopy]

It will take at least a couple of years for their thumbprint to make an impression. If you need something, get it now before tariffs hit the new inventory.

Im in Europe thanks

 

[BeeKay]

Same effect that caused Leica to almost go bankrupt in 2004.

Well, their "digital sensors won’t ever replace good old chemistry“ take might have been a contributing factor too.

 

[valerianf]

May be that Samsung will bring some manufacturing facilities that Sound United did not have.
At the opposite, Voxx that has some manufacturing facilities has been sold for less than half SU.
What next generation of products will look like will be decisive for the survival of these brands.
Let us cross fingers.

 

[Travis]

Dr. Olive announced his resignation this week, not so sure where the R&D is headed with speakers.

Isn’t most of the HARMAN International R&D for electronics centralized in CT?

 

[watchnerd]

Dr. Olive announced his resignation this week, not so sure where the R&D is headed with speakers.

Isn’t most of the HARMAN International R&D for electronics centralized in CT?

I'm going to guess R&D is headed nowhere.

Head to head speaker preference testing for speakers mattered when people actually went to audio salons and demo'ed speakers. But those days seem mostly in the past.

Probably better ROI to go with 'good enough' scientific knowledge that we currently have and focus on features, styling, etc.

The resurgence of vinyl shows how far you can reinvigorate an industry that has had hardly any new primary research since the 1970s. It's mostly just manufacturing execution now.

 

[techsamurai]

It is called valuation. Generally company's free cash flow discounted to the transaction date. It is result of market not expecting much in terms of performance from these companies. Not much to do with Atmos at all.

I'm quite aware of valuation and cash is not the only thing that determines valuation. Atmos is the current surround sound requirement for home theater and even soundbar Atmos simulation.

I have 2 home theaters albeit 5.1 systems, but I would never consider Atmos but that's because I have read 100,000 posts and watched 10 million movies on sound. I was watching Rogue One on Bluray in glorious 3D (after 1 year of not touching my digital media) and the sound was beyond insane. But even my system today costs $25,000 and I paid a fraction.

And I don't even sport massive Ultima Salon 2 or super subs. And that's for a 5.1 system. If I did a 13.2, I'd destroy my living rooms and spend $35,000 or more.

 

[techsamurai]

I think it's also about what younger audiophiles spend their audio money on.

Expensive headphones and pricey headphone amps seem a higher priority for younger folks these days, for all sorts of reasons.

But that means less money on traditional speakers (if at all). And when they do buy speakers, active monitors also seem popular vs passive.

Agreed, people spend a bazillion on headphones. I was absolutely shocked at my daughter's college at how many people have AirPods Max which cost $550. I just replaced the blue earpads on her Beats Studio 2 that I purchased on sale for her many years ago.

But I don't think that Massimo's companies are heavily invested in headphones except for B&W and their PX line. They're mostly stereo and home theater.

Stereo involves 2 speakers while Home Theater can involve 13 speakers (thanks to Atmos) and most people will aim for 7,9,11, or 13 to beat a soundbar's number of drivers. Very few people would choose a 5-channel system like the ones I have over, say, a Sonos soundbar which on paper is a 9.1.2 system

With a soundbar you just need to unpack, connect, power, run, and enjoy Atmos sound.

Try doing the same with a 13 speaker Atmos system. The boxes alone become an issue Ideally, they'd all be wireless and run without a power plug But even then you still have to mount them. I love surround sound but I would never build an Atmos system nowadays and I don't think I'm the only one here.

 

[watchnerd]

Agreed, people spend a bazillion on headphones. I was absolutely shocked at my daughter's college at how many people have AirPods Max which cost $550. I just replaced the blue earpads on her Beats Studio 2 that I purchased on sale for her many years ago.

But I don't think that Massimo's companies are heavily invested in headphones except for B&W and their PX line. They're mostly stereo and home theater.

Stereo involves 2 speakers while Home Theater can involve 13 speakers (thanks to Atmos) and most people will aim for 7,9,11, or 13 to beat a soundbar's number of drivers. Very few people would choose a 5-channel system like the ones I have over, say, a Sonos soundbar which on paper is a 9.1.2 system

With a soundbar you just need to unpack, connect, power, run, and enjoy Atmos sound.

Try doing the same with a 13 speaker Atmos system. The boxes alone become an issue Ideally, they'd all be wireless and run without a power plug But even then you still have to mount them. I love surround sound but I would never build an Atmos system nowadays and I don't think I'm the only one here.

Yep, that's my read, too.

In addition, entertainment is more personal -- gaming PCs, people watching movies on computers / iPads, etc. Full blown home theatre systems with multiple channels around the room are a dying breed.

In our house, we barely use the TV at all. So little that we don't even have a soundbar. We just use the crappy built-in speakers.

 

[Oddball]

I'm quite aware of valuation and cash is not the only thing that determines valuation. Atmos is the current surround sound requirement for home theater and even soundbar Atmos simulation.

I have 2 home theaters albeit 5.1 systems, but I would never consider Atmos but that's because I have read 100,000 posts and watched 10 million movies on sound. I was watching Rogue One on Bluray in glorious 3D (after 1 year of not touching my digital media) and the sound was beyond insane. But even my system today costs $25,000 and I paid a fraction.

And I don't even sport massive Ultima Salon 2 or super subs. And that's for a 5.1 system. If I did a 13.2, I'd destroy my living rooms and spend $35,000 or more.

Agreed. But this again has nothing to do with Atmos. 4 formidable Atmos speakers can be had for $2k or less.

Most people just don't feel AVRs are worth it for them. My son is too lazy to setup even a soundbar with with 77" OLED and he loves the plain experience despite being privy to all my HTs of the past that were and are grand. But just does not strike his fancy. I offered him the starter kit as will likely discontinue my Dubai HT, but he did not want to take it even if eventually I offered it for free. Value of probably $8K or more, conservatively priced.

 

[amper42]

Agreed. But this again has nothing to do with Atmos. 4 formidable Atmos speakers can be had for $2k or less.

Most people just don't feel AVRs are worth it for them. My son is too lazy to setup even a soundbar with with 77" OLED and he loves the plain experience despite being privy to all my HTs of the past that were and are grand. But just does not strike his fancy. I offered him the starter kit as will likely discontinue my Dubai HT, but he did not want to take it even if eventually I offered it for free. Value of probably $8K or more, conservatively priced.

Most people are happy with the sound their TV speakers offer. They don't want to clutter up the house with speaker boxes and gear. They also like the simplicity of no soundbar or anything else to connect. The housing market compounds the issue, as it's impacting space availability and free cash. AVR's don't have a lot of new customers beating down their doors. I think your son is in the majority.

 

[Oddball]

Agreed - and in my example just was trying to emphasise that even getting gear worth $8k for free was not worth for one of the younger generation folks to bother. He could have eventually sold the gear and pocketed $4K in fire sale, but the sheer bulk of the gear was apparently not worth it.

Thinking like the new generation, wires are the biggest problem, followed by the bulk of worthy gear. Wireless and small that comes with installation & cleaning service is likely what some of them with higher disposable income might still entertain if in say $5K reach for 5.2.4. But then they would still have big expectations as to the sound and there are few solutions now that could tempt them.

 

[techsamurai]

Agreed - and in my example just was trying to emphasise that even getting gear worth $8k for free was not worth for one of the younger generation folks to bother. He could have eventually sold the gear and pocketed $4K in fire sale, but the sheer bulk of the gear was apparently not worth it.

Thinking like the new generation, wires are the biggest problem, followed by the bulk of worthy gear. Wireless and small that comes with installation & cleaning service is likely what some of them with higher disposable income might still entertain if in say $5K reach for 5.2.4. But then they would still have big expectations as to the sound and there are few solutions now that could tempt them.

Well, the original Sonos goes for $599 on sale and is a no brainer with 9 channels.

$5k for 5.2.4 - that would actually not be easy to do because you'd want to spend more on LCR than surrounds and heights.

 

[Oddball]

I am no expert in $5K budget, but you need to be opportunistic at that level. I'd say get the best bookshelves deal you can for 9 speakers for $3K (certainly more than 50% off the so called listed), spend another $1K smartly of subs and the remaining $1K would be AVR. Obviously going used will stretch that budget significantly.

You can try to arbitrage with downgrade of the surrounds and Atmost, but ultimately it will not work that well in this budget. It's more of having a decent start kit and you can then speculate about LCR with some additional investment. As opposed to - I really hate my fully compromised small surrounds and Atmos and need to get rid of them ASAP.

 

[techsamurai]

I am no expert in $5K budget, but you need to be opportunistic at that level. I'd say get the best bookshelves deal you can for 9 speakers for $3K (certainly more than 50% off the so called listed), spend another $1K smartly of subs and the remaining $1K would be AVR. Obviously going used will stretch that budget significantly.

You can try to arbitrage with downgrade of the surrounds and Atmost, but ultimately it will not work that well in this budget. It's more of having a decent start kit and you can then speculate about LCR with some additional investment. As opposed to - I really hate my fully compromised small surrounds and Atmos and need to get rid of them ASAP.

Yeah but that's part of my point of how Atmos complicated surround sound for not much in return - the height channels barely play in most content and I doubt anyone has complained about the quality ever as usually they are in-ceiling speakers and cheap in general and they almost never play.

The height and surround channels are obviously the most complicated to install.

Shane Lee exposed how little height channels were used with his Trinnov analyzer.

I don't know the exact numbers but I've heard that anywhere from 70-90% of the sound in a movie comes from the LCR channels which show the importance of the LCR and particularly the center channel.

Atmos complicated an already complicated process. Instead of coming up with ways to simplify the setup, they went the other way and that had a huge impact on sales.

Naturally soundbars swept in to fill the gap in market share that Atmos created.

 

[Oddball]

Yeah but that's part of my point of how Atmos complicated surround sound for not much in return - the height channels barely play in most content and I doubt anyone has complained about the quality ever as usually they are in-ceiling speakers and cheap in general and they almost never play.

The height and surround channels are obviously the most complicated to install.

Shane Lee exposed how little height channels were used with his Trinnov analyzer.

I don't know the exact numbers but I've heard that anywhere from 70-90% of the sound in a movie comes from the LCR channels which show the importance of the LCR and particularly the center channel.

Atmos complicated an already complicated process. Instead of coming up with ways to simplify the setup, they went the other way and that had a huge impact on sales.

Naturally soundbars swept in to fill the gap in market share that Atmos created.

Atmos is definitely a more than evolution of 7.1. I would not go back to 7.1 - ever. Atmos soundtracks often disappoint, but some are amazing.

It remains individual how many people will view Atmos as worthy or not. Installation is also a bit of pain so I can understand where you are coming from.

Not sure what Shane has to “expose”. There are threads on other forums going back years with people analysing various Atmos activity. These are the ones that are genuine and I would generally steer away from somebody else summarising them. Quoting Shane as authority is a bit dubious, but will not get involved in these discussions. Reviewers with history of measuring the output are the ones that get my attention.

 

[techsamurai]

Not sure what Shane has to “expose”. There are threads on other forums going back years with people analysing various Atmos activity. These are the ones that are genuine and I would generally steer away from somebody else summarising them. Quoting Shane as authority is a bit dubious, but will not get involved in these discussions. Reviewers with history of measuring the output are the ones that get my attention.

Trinnov comes with an object viewer so you can see which channels are active at different times. It's a matter of having a Trinnov, knowing how to use the object viewer and then reviewing movies to see the usage. I guess there are other ways to do that but this does it visually in 3D.

 

[Oddball]

I hate to waste another post, and refer you to AVS forum at the same time, but that is where they started the whole Atmos monitoring thing and it gets much more granular between 2,4 and 6 channel Atmos. So best to go the source and if you care to spend hours, you will get at least some objective information. You don't need Trinnov or Shane to analyse Atmos activity as others have done it in large numbers and on different gear before, so represent at least scientifically a better sample.

 

[Palmer]

Interesting article, I kind of agree with the points the writer makes...

Masimo Sells Sound United to Harman; Excited? Temper Your Enthusiasm

Masimo has announced the long-anticipated sale of Sound United to Harman Industries - a division of Samsung Electronics for $350 million

www.strata-gee.com