Harman To Acquire B&W, Denon, Polk And Marantz From Masimo In $350 Million Deal

[amper42]

If this "R&D will lead to sales" was the most important thing for market success, we wouldn't even be having this discussion about these brands being sold for low valuations.

These brands are being sold for 1/3rd of what Massimo paid for them.

That's a huge indictment of the prior path's failure to adapt to a changing market.

Actually, it's more an indicator that Masimo bought at inflated prices based on sales during COVID that were unsustainable and the CEO had a passion to move in that direction regardless of price. Then, when the CEO was ousted based on this expense, the new management sold off the assets in "Fire sale" fashion rather than continue to develop the value within. It's all about the change in CEO and Vision and nothing to do with changing market.

If you want to talk about failure to adapt to changing market one brand that comes to the front is B&W. They are setup for a standout sound in the show room with elevated treble, but after you have had them awhile they can become harsh on the ears if you don't know how to EQ them. B&W speakers are regularly replaced by Revel models. That's a fact.

 

[watchnerd]

Actually, it's more an indicator that Masimo bought at inflated prices based on sales during COVID that were unsustainable and the CEO had a passion to move in that direction regardless of price. Then, when the CEO was ousted based on this expense, the new management sold off the assets in "Fire sale" fashion rather than continue to develop the value within. It's all about the change in CEO and Vision and nothing to do with changing market.

If you want to talk about failure to adapt to changing market one brand that comes to the front is B&W. They are setup for a standout sound in the show room with elevated treble, but after you have had them awhile they can become harsh on the ears if you don't know how to EQ them. B&W speakers are regularly replaced by Revel models. That's a fact.

Oh, I'm not a fan of B&W's sound. I've found them harsh since the 1990s.

I use Dynaudio speakers.

But I can't deny their sales and branding success vs most speaker brands.

Same for Klipsch.

 

[PristineSound]

Revel's great engineering isn't driving market dominance. But this shouldn't be news -- the tech industry is rife with examples of superior engineering losing to better marketing / branding. Or market conditions changing completely, freezing past research in time (LPs, cassettes, etc) and market relevance.

Revel's undeterred application of the latest and greatest science to produce excellent sound, but only to be shun out by consumers for better marketed products and then Revel's endless deep deep discounts just to make up for sales shortfall is one of the handful of travesties in HiFi audio.

There may be some good isolated science in B&W, but as a whole package, B&W fall short of objective science; subjectively, I personally am not a fan. Yet, they dominate the market and in the minds of consumers.

 

[watchnerd]

Revel's undeterred application of the latest and greatest science to produce excellent sound, but only to be shun out by consumers for better marketed products and then Revel's endless deep deep discounts just to make up for sales shortfall is one of the handful of travesties in HiFi audio.

There may be some good isolated science in B&W, but as a whole package, B&W fall short of objective science; subjectively, I personally am not a fan. Yet, they dominate the market and in the minds of consumers.

It's an entertainment business.

There is no rule that the best engineered product gets to win.

In fact, at the high end, there are examples of the exact *opposite* effect (e.g. Wilson Audio) -- poorly engineered products that sell for outrageous prices and continue to stay in business for years.

 

[Arindal]

Just because Harman spent a lot of R&D money on preference test researching in a setting designed to match (then popular) living room scenarios doesn't mean that research will drive sales going forward.

Are you saying that the room scenarios used in these tests are regarding their acoustic properties not applicable anymore to current living rooms? In my understanding that would imply that the results are not valid anymore, including target curves and findings what is audible/preferred and what not. I would accept that as a viable explanation (even if one might come to the conclusion that it can hardly be the only reason), but seemingly that would change the approach of how we see measurements dramatically. The majority of in-room FR curves being touted on ASR would require some serious reflection to which degree the Harman curve was actually a target curve.

Could you elaborate on what has changed in living room scenarios please? I have a lot of experience with room acoustics but do not really see that much of a change over the course of the last 30 years.

I would agree that general R&D budget does not necessarily drive sales up. But a holistic research approach putting a lot of effort into subjective preference testing? I would expect exactly that, particularly as this has seemingly been working very well with the portable speakers and other categories.

These brands are being sold for 1/3rd of what Massimo paid for them.

Not saying that these brands have been doing everything right. But if I recall the Masimo story correctly, it was mainly their founder driving the acquisition, possibly for personal reasons, which was meeting quite some hostile reaction from shareholders almost immediately. Eventually leading to him to being ousted and the audio business being declared ´discontinued operation´. Which in my understanding implies that they had paid slightly more than market price.

B&W speakers are regularly replaced by Revel models. That's a fact.

Interesting information. Could you please share some market data or sources backing up this hypothesis? It sounds a bit unlikely in my ears, as I rarely see people replacing speakers with quite an opposite concept in terms of sound character. And maybe my perspective is distorted by the situation of Revel being hardly present in all the markets I might have a chance to overview.

they can become harsh on the ears if you don't know how to EQ them.

If they did not sound harsh in the hi-fi salon but harsh in your living room, my guess would be that nothing in the world can EQ that.

Yet, they dominate the market and in the minds of consumers.

Maybe ´dominating´ is a strong word, but the number of consumers buying them specifically after doing some listening comparison, is pretty obvious. We can endlessly discuss if consumers are right or wrong here, but I would expect them to dominate any blind listening A/B test as well. Who can explain that?

 

[Arindal]

There is no rule that the best engineered product gets to win.

Surely not. But I would compare deep research on consumer preference in blind listening tests with some pollsters in the political business. They might like or not like the future president, but I expect them to give a valid prediction who will win. If they are wrong for 40 years, I might question their methods.

there are examples of the exact *opposite* effect (e.g. Wilson Audio) -- poorly engineered products that sell for outrageous prices and continue to stay in business for years.

Again, I have no sympathies for the sound of WA speakers, but I easily imagine which music to use at a listening test so they will win almost any blind A/B comparison.

 

[PristineSound]

Maybe ´dominating´ is a strong word, but the number of consumers buying them specifically after doing some listening comparison, is pretty obvious. We can endlessly discuss if consumers are right or wrong here, but I would expect them to dominate any blind listening A/B test as well. Who can explain that?

Them as in B&W would dominate any blind listening A/B test? Or do you mean Revel?

 

[watchnerd]

Are you saying that the room scenarios used in these tests are regarding their acoustic properties not applicable anymore to current living rooms?

Hang out on Reddit.

See how many young people have living rooms at all, or if they do, what it is shaped like and how they listen to things.

TV with soundbar in small apartment living room (not much room for speakers, and can't play them loud, anyway).

Desktop listening because the PC doubles as a gaming machine.

Headphone listening because they're listening to music from a phone, tablet, or laptop.

Cramming small active speakers into a bedroom because they have housemates.

If young people's portion of home ownership is less than it was and their habits are for individual audio, that changes listening environments.

Before I retired, I worked for a very young tech company. The 20-somethings remarked that I had "whoa, a real stereo with speakers and everything."

When I was their age, a 'real stereo' was a priority for many young men. Now it's just not.

 

[PristineSound]

It's an entertainment business.

There is no rule that the best engineered product gets to win.

In fact, at the high end, there are examples of the exact *opposite* effect (e.g. Wilson Audio) -- poorly engineered products that sell for outrageous prices and continue to stay in business for years.

I wouldn't limit it to just the entertainment business. The power of marketing goes far and wide in everything and anything. Many times it's the uninformed consumers who fall prey. I'm just glad I'm not one of those uninformed consumers.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

Hang out on Reddit.

Civilisation really is on the brink .. ,

Maybe there's a part time job working the tills at the local farmers market? Gotta be better than this thread ..

Worried of Taunton

 

[watchnerd]

Civilisation really is on the brink .. ,

Maybe there's a part time job working the tills at the local farmers market? Gotta be better than this thread ..

Worried of Taunton

I'm staying out of the sun today after too much yesterday.

I don't want to transform from nice toasty golden brown to "beet red German tourist on Malta in July".

 

[Cogito]

Just another indication of a dying industry that we grey hairs once knew, and much of what's left has been priced out of the mainstream budget for most.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

I'm staying out of the sun today after too much yesterday.

I don't want to transform from nice toasty golden brown to "beet red German tourist on Malta in July".

Just the mention of Germans on Malta is provoking a Churchillian wrath within me .

 

[PristineSound]

and much of what's left has been priced out of the mainstream budget for most.

Not sure if I totally agree with this statement. Some portions of this industry has evolved to personal audio, headphones, desktop audio and small listening spaces. These aforementioned are more affordable than ever. The Topping's and SMSL's, WiiM, Fosi.

Even the traditional shelve electronics and bookshelf speakers that requires a large living room are is still doing alright. The Purifi's and Hypex's with the Ascilab's, ELAC's, Ascend Acoustics.

Now the old school 44CM electronics and full towers are moving up in the luxury space and that is pricing folks out. But you can still find some deals.

 

[Arindal]

Them as in B&W would dominate any blind listening A/B test?

If B&W models win a lot of personal listening comparisons at home or at dealerships, I would expect them to show a similar performance in blind listening tests. If the results are reversed, I would question the methods and parameters of the controlled listening tests. There are too many variables capable of reversing such tests.

If young people's portion of home ownership is less than it was, that changes listening environments.

Surely yes. But I was more referring to your hint that some decades ago the speakers having won the Toole/Olive tests would perform that well against competitors like B&W because of living room scenarios back then, in contradiction to current scenarios. I do not see any reason why acoustic properties have changed in favor of loudspeakers which are more popular today, for example B&W. Rather the opposite.

Many times it's the uninformed consumers who fall prey. I'm just glad I'm not one of those uninformed consumers.

This statement I would rather expect from a fanatic supporter of B&W or Wilson Audio, calling people who buy solely based on specs and measurements instead of using their ears to judge, ´uninformed´. It is a bit ironic that a fair majority of audiophiles have fallen for esoteric beliefs and poorly engineered products partly because they had walked away from the ´1,800 Watts´, ´15-48,000Hz´ and ´+-0.5dB´ tech-spec marketing in the 1980s and 1990s.

 

[PristineSound]

If B&W models win a lot of personal listening comparisons at home or at dealerships, I would expect them to show a similar performance in blind listening tests. If the results are reversed, I would question the methods and parameters of the controlled listening tests. There are too many variables capable of reversing such tests.

Oh, how much I disagree with this. This is no different than people putting on a snake oil cable and saying, whoa, the soundstage just blew up and a veil has been lifted off of the speakers.

This statement I would rather expect from a fanatic supporter of B&W or Wilson Audio, calling people who buy solely based on specs and measurements instead of using their ears to judge, ´uninformed´. It is a bit ironic that a fair majority of audiophiles have fallen for esoteric beliefs and poorly engineered products partly because they had walked away from the ´1,800 Watts´, ´15-48,000Hz´ and ´+-0.5dB´ tech-spec marketing in the 1980s and 1990s.

Rarely anyone who uses their ear to judge, solely uses their ears, most uses their eyes too. B&W has done a remarkable job with marketing and brand prestige and not so remarkable with objective performance. Anyway, I don't want to get into a back and forth battle with you on B&W vs Revel based on fanboyism. I'll let the established science and data do the talking.

 

[Arindal]

This is no different than people putting on a snake oil cable and saying, whoa, the soundstage just blew up and a veil has been lifted off of the speakers.

We are not talking about dubious or subtle differences, but verifiably significant performance differences, which anybody could identify in a blind listening test (and actually did in Toole´s and Olive's experiments I am aware of). It is just about personal preference and the circumstances why people prefer setup A over setup B. If this greatly varies between a vast number of personal tests and some controlled experiments, I would not blame that on the non-blind conditions and people being deluded in masses, but rather on different test parameters.

Rarely anyone who uses their ear to judge, solely uses their ears, most uses their eyes too. B&W has done a remarkable job with marketing and brand prestige

Sorry to disagree, but the B&W speakers, particularly the models below 10 grand, do not look anyhow technically superior or special to reverse the result of a non-blind test IMHO. Most of people at shows or in dealerships are presumably not aware of the marketing machinery behind it, which has anyways slowed down significantly over the course of the last decade. And I have even witnessed people who were not into hi-fi preferring these speakers just because they perceived them as ´fun to listen to´.

I am by no means saying that they sound right or are technically superior, would probably choose Revels myself if I had to make a choice. But the evidence that a lot of people like B&W´s sound signature is strong enough to expect a similar result in blind tests. Solely that was my point.

I'll let the established science and data do the talking.

Look at the data of market share, if available.

 

[PristineSound]

We are not talking about dubious or subtle differences, but verifiably significant performance differences, which anybody could identify in a blind listening test (and actually did in Toole´s and Olive's experiments I am aware of).

If cables make no difference and people claim they heard a difference, imagine the claims they will make in the B&W when they actually heard a difference, bad differences included.

And speaking of Toole, part of his research includes a B&W in a blind test, if memory serves me right, it didn't do too well. You can also search for Toole's comment on B&W here in ASR, then you will find out what he thinks of them.

 

[masterhw]

Hang out on Reddit.

See how many young people have living rooms at all, or if they do, what it is shaped like and how they listen to things.

TV with soundbar in small apartment living room (not much room for speakers, and can't play them loud, anyway).

Desktop listening because the PC doubles as a gaming machine.

Headphone listening because they're listening to music from a phone, tablet, or laptop.

Cramming small active speakers into a bedroom because they have housemates.

If young people's portion of home ownership is less than it was and their habits are for individual audio, that changes listening environments.

Before I retired, I worked for a very young tech company. The 20-somethings remarked that I had "whoa, a real stereo with speakers and everything."

When I was their age, a 'real stereo' was a priority for many young men. Now it's just not.

verging off topic but as one of the under 30s that hangs around here I just can’t see any of my peers feeling compelled to spend thousands on better sound quality. I feel extremely fortunate as there’s never been a better time to be an enthusiast if that is something important to you.

The most interest I’ve seen was in vinyl, and I think that only worked as it wasn’t terribly expensive to get in to and was a fun and different way to experience music. Then new records became $40-50 and everyone I know started to hesitate as that’s the cost of several months of spotify or a local concert.

Headphones, soundbars, and active/lifestyle speakers are the only real forms I see audio continuing on for Gen Z. There’s just next to no interest in buying expensive electronics boxes (be they DACs/amps/AVRs) when I could get a homepod or a soundbar that wouldn’t need any of it. The perceived value is just so poor for the bulk of hi-fi products.

I think there’s a moderate market for nearfield active monitors spurred by bedroom musicians and producers, it’s a meme for 20-something year old guys to have a Focusrite Scarlett interface. But with the typical living configurations for most young people now, they’re extremely fortunate if they could have anything beyond a 2.0 or 3.1 setup at the most. And would rather spend their money on something else than dumping more in to what is already largely a solved problem for them (“can I hear Netflix and Spotify clearly?”).

 

[amper42]

If they did not sound harsh in the hi-fi salon but harsh in your living room, my guess would be that nothing in the world can EQ that.

It's not uncommon for speakers with elevated highs to sound fine for a short period of time, maybe even better when comparing them in a very limited time window against other speakers at a dealer. But once you spend long listening sessions with them it's not uncommon for ear fatigue to set in along with buyers remorse.

You can reduce EQ elevated treble with EQ. However, if you don't spend a little time researching the frequency response of your next speaker purchase, you probably also don't know how or have the tools to effectively apply EQ.