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Harman curves sound different? (room x headphones x IEMs )

Tim Link

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I was not even talking about clarity and details, just overall tonality between target curves. Way off in my experience.
Good point. We've gone off topic getting into clarity. Which brings up a question I've had about whether or not clarity has any effect on tonality. I've been under the assumption that it does but I don't know for sure how much or why. A quick thought experiment imagines a quick burst of broadband energy played, with the high frequencies stopping and starting abruptly, but the low frequency energies spread out over time. My guess is it will sound too bright if the total amount of bass energy has not increased. But if you try to fix it by turning up the bass it will sound bloated. It just can't be fixed. In a room I think this would work in reverse. A properly designed speaker would put out the correct amount of bass during the short burst but the highs would stop quickly and the bass energy reaching the microphone over time would be too high as the bass lingers. So you turn down the bass so the total energy is correct but now it sounds thin and you can't hear the bass notes. Maybe it's time for an experiment.
 
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ernestcarl

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Look at the clarity tab and the C50 measurement. I'm currently getting around 10db on the C50 chart in my front room through most of the bass and lower midrange. It'd be interesting to see what other people are getting and how they perceive the sound. Here at ASC we are thinking about 10db is a good C50 goal, with 15db or higher being excellent for bass articulation.

Clarity is going to be much higher in a treated space. If I can get away with it, I prefer higher clarity (esp. in the bass) even if it's at the expense of additional "room feel" contributed reflections. Here are my C50 traces:

1618631947685.png

with a sub

Obviously, the closer the distance and louder the volume, the higher the clarity. All channels were measured at approximately the same volume level.

I would also look at the decay time in the bass -- it's easier to visualize what happens over a longer period of time using a wavelet spectrogram.

Personally, I prefer speakers over headphones now other than for the sake of convenience and portability.
 

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Tim Link

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Clarity is going to be much higher in a treated space. If I can get away with it, I prefer higher clarity (esp. in the bass) even if it's at the expense of additional "room feel" contributed reflections. Here are my C50 traces:

View attachment 124499
with a sub

Obviously, the closer the distance and louder the volume, the higher the clarity. All channels were measured at approximately the same volume level.

I would also look at the decay time in the bass -- it's easier to visualize what happens over a longer period of time using a wavelet spectrogram.

Personally, I prefer speakers over headphones now other than for the sake of convenience and portability.
That's way higher clarity than what I'm used to seeing from most people's rooms. Usually it has to be near field and a highly treated room to get those kind of measurements. What all do you have going on in there?
 

ernestcarl

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That's way higher clarity than what I'm used to seeing from most people's rooms. Usually it has to be near field and a highly treated room to get those kind of measurements. What all do you have going on in there?

I've wondered about the low clarity levels others were getting themselves... but it may be partly because of the cheap ass acoustic foam I've got randomly (very haphazardly and without much aesthetic consideration) scattered all over the room. Someone remarked the room reminded them of a psyc ward. Or maybe it's the excessive pillows and blanket? :p I know that behind the walls and ceiling there's a good bit of insulation as well.

couch behind the room
1618637170176.jpeg


stand desk in front of room
1618637175055.jpeg


Bass response is better in the standing mode so I've permanently opted for this height level and alternatively use a high chair and large ottoman underneath as a foot rest.


Another thing that improved the clarity levels in the bass was by making adjustments in my sub PEQs and low cut-off as well as sub+mains xo -- oh, yeah, and optimizing the phase and time alignment using rePhase -- this actually helped more than I had thought it would looking at and comparing with my past measurements.
 
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thewas

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I understood that in the listening position, it does not matter if the speaker has wide or narrow dispersion, dipole or front firing, the preferred curve was the linear curve with the downward slope no matter how it was created and reflected in the room, as long as it arrived at the sweet spot in that curve. Did I get that wrong?
A resulting downward slope is the usual result (there exist even there exceptions) but the slope gradient is different depending on aforementioned factors, see for example http://www.ohl.to/calculators/targetcurve.php

Shouldn't each ERTF also affect how the subject perceives a speaker in the room? So if the idea was a headphone/IEM target that resembles as close as possible a the linear downward slope in a room, then ERTF affect all curves equal (speaker, headphone, IEM).
Unfortunately not only as both direct sound and reflected sounds affect how the subject perceives tonality unless you listen under anechoic conditions.
 

Frgirard

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The reverberation time calls rt60 must be constant any where in the room.
The early decay time can change with the location in the room

When peoples prentending be professional will speak about the early decay time, the acoustic of room will a great step and JLO with.

You have ultra low decay on the headphone.

In bass response this is the great difference with the headphone.
 

Pegwill

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Hi

Where would I find Amirs curve for speakers that he likes, as mentioned above please? By @Pdxwayne
Many thanks

William
 
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Matias

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Pegwill

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Many thanks. Don’t suppose there’s a text file available for loading into REW?
William
 
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Matias

Matias

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Many thanks. Don’t suppose there’s a text file available for loading into REW?
William
Actually you don't need a text file for a house curve with such a simple slope. Just program it on the right hand side of the EQ window.

10db 20hz to 20khz Harman slop REW.jpg
 

Hephaestus

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Many thanks. Don’t suppose there’s a text file available for loading into REW?
William

Hi Pegwill

If you have well engineered speakers I highly recommend to leave the in room frequency response above transition area "as it is" and equalize below 500Hz. Adjust then the bass according to that "target curve" above. Fine tune by taste if needed

This is the method I have used lately and observed that I prefer it over "hammering the in room response to follow some target".

Or try both and see which one you like.
 

Pegwill

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Thanks I’ll give it try as soon as I can

Regards

William
 

Tim Link

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I've wondered about the low clarity levels others were getting themselves... but it may be partly because of the cheap ass acoustic foam I've got randomly (very haphazardly and without much aesthetic consideration) scattered all over the room. Someone remarked the room reminded them of a psyc ward. Or maybe it's the excessive pillows and blanket? :p I know that behind the walls and ceiling there's a good bit of insulation as well.

couch behind the room
View attachment 124517

stand desk in front of room
View attachment 124518

Bass response is better in the standing mode so I've permanently opted for this height level and alternatively use a high chair and large ottoman underneath as a foot rest.


Another thing that improved the clarity levels in the bass was by making adjustments in my sub PEQs and low cut-off as well as sub+mains xo -- oh, yeah, and optimizing the phase and time alignment using rePhase -- this actually helped more than I had thought it would looking at and comparing with my past measurements.
Thanks for the pics! What I'm seeing and what you've describes makes sense with the measurements you provided. I feel secure in my sanity again. The cheap ass foam seems to be working! As you note, the high clarity up in the treble ranges may not be to some people's liking. I've experimented with a room we have at ASC, listening to it completely bare and then comparing as I add more and more acoustics. Completely bare is a very exciting sound, but I find fatiguing. What it lacks in clarity it gains in a kind of perceived openness - or perhaps spaciousness or envelopment is the right word. With TubeTraps all the way around the room with their treble diffusers turned toward the listener it seems to retain that spaciousness but sounds smoother and calmer. You should be getting some pretty good diffusion and maintaining some ambience since you've broken up the foam into little bits and spread them around, leaving bare wall between.
 
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ernestcarl

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Thanks for the pics! What I'm seeing and what you've describes makes sense with the measurements you provided. I feel secure in my sanity again. The cheap ass foam seems to be working! As you note, the high clarity up in the treble ranges may not be to some people's liking. I've experimented with a room we have at ASC, listening to it completely bare and then comparing as I add more and more acoustics. Completely bare is a very exciting sound, but I find fatiguing. What it lacks in clarity it gains in a kind of perceived openness - or perhaps spaciousness or envelopment is the right word. With TubeTraps all the way around the room with their treble diffusers turned toward the listener it seems to retain that spaciousness but sounds smoother and calmer. You should be getting some pretty good diffusion and maintaining some ambience since you've broken up the foam into little bits and spread them around, leaving bare wall between.

I suppose them not being in any fixed pattern does retain some reflections. Still, the amount of absorption and with no physical diffusors or scatter plates around, though, some kind of surround upmixing may be desirable. Pure 2.0 channel stereo or 2.1 bass managed mode almost sounds too dry sometimes. For the desk, dry is fine as I prefer to use it for voice-over critical listening without any embellishments.
 
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