Harman Curve Compliance

[TTT15]

It can be quantified/measured but would have to be done for each individual.


The open mind is not needed at all.

You just have to listen to a headphone (and feel the comfort) and either use the one you pick 'as is' or you can buy one that is close to what you seek (sound-wise) and simply tune it how you prefer it.
Does not matter if that is exactly according to a measurement or not.

Perfectly fine to use Oratory EQ suggestions for this (or any other one) as a 'starting point' and change the EQ to taste.
Oratory even mentions which bands can (and very likely should) be adjusted to taste.

Tastes differ, standards don't.

As the Harman curve has changed over the years, and with other fixtures might change a little again, it is clear that the Harman curve is not a 'standard fixed in stone' but a still evolving 'target for the masses' rather than a true standard.

I just meant I think you should be aware of subjective bias but otherwise I agree. As I understand the harman curve is not an absolute standard but a moving average preference target for some people and doesn’t capture all aspects of headphones such as soundstage, drivability, comfort , fit, build quality, style, features and price. You would need a personalised weighted average of all factors ideally. I think I read Amir that headphones are 50pc measurements and that feels about right for me. I’m not sure that applies to the purchasing decision for products like AirPods though where style, fashion and features like noise cancelling are more important

 

[FTB]

Frequency response is still the first and most important criteria, like for speakers.

 

[TTT15]

Is there any evidence that the majority of people mainly buy their headphones based on frequency response? Why are AirPods so popular? Why aren’t all headphones tuned to the harman curve?

 

[Keith_W]

Frequency response is still the first and most important criteria, like for speakers.

The frequency response is only correct for the test dummy. Each person will hear a different frequency response from the same pair of headphones. Think of headphones like speakers - the measurements you see on Amir's Klippel is not what you are going to get at home.

 

[solderdude]

Is there any evidence that the majority of people mainly buy their headphones based on frequency response? Why are AirPods so popular? Why aren’t all headphones tuned to the harman curve?

There is evidence that in blind testing the majority of people choose a tonal balance close to that of the Harman target.
There is evidence there are also a lot of people that prefer a bit more or less bass.

AirPods (max) and ipods are popular because it is a fashion statement and it has Apple on it. I think that when one would closely examine Air/i-pods on the street that a whole lot of them turn out to be fakes. The owners don't care as they look the same and don't care about sound quality... just the looks.
Also ... they are wireless.

The sound quality of most of the apple devices is quite good as well. They have something people prefer namely elevated bass, somewhat reduced clarity and elevated upper treble. The elevated bass is what they have in common with Harman target.
The Airpods max are very close to the Harman target in the bass but have less clarity (which especially younger people) seem to like as they can listen louder that way and 'bright' recordings sound more pleasant that way.

The reason why not all headphones are tuned to Harman is because it is very difficult to 'tune' an on-/over-ear headphone that way without resorting to build-in EQ.
Dan Clark seems to be able to come closest and so do some (Samsung allied) headphones for obvious reasons.
Some headphones are purpose build (often studio monitoring) and some are just made to make a profit and manufactures just go with something they can make cheap, looks appealing to the target audience. Some like to make stuff with a house sound (Grado, HIFIMAN, Beyerdynamic) and some just want to make different sounding ones they hope the buyers want (ZMF).

Those looking for accurate sound (which most owners don't care about) always seem to end up with certain models/brands and Sennheiser, AKG, Beyerdynamic, HIFIMAN and Apple (because it is Apple). The rest is niche or just popular with kids and trends.

 

[shuppatsu]

You may be interested in this Josh Mound essay at subjectivist haven Audiophilestyle. While I don’t generally share his beliefs about audio, Josh is a thoughtful and interesting guy. The impetus for the essay was a poor ASR review of a Harman non-compliant headphone by ZMF and the resulting back and forth between Amir and Zach(?) of ZMF.

 

[TTT15]

Yes interesting and good summary and agreed. I’m not at all suggesting it is wrong to consider the harman curve or that it doesn’t indicate an average preference.

But I suspect and that was my question that the harman curve isn’t the reason why most people buy a headphone. I Suspect that most are not even aware of harman curve.

I see a lot of AirPods Max at moment at the gym and work and they really like them. I asked a colleague why he purchased and he said he finds the ANC really good. No mention of harman curve. I suspect they are something of a fashion item and they sound fine to them.

Personally I think the most important criteria is to find a headphone that gives you the most enjoyment. And I’m not convinced you should purchase a headphone because it more closely matches the harman curve like the Dan Clark stealth if you don’t enjoy it.

My colleagues are happy with their AirPods and if they are happy so be it and if people buy the headphones based on the harman curve that is also absolutely fine too. But that is also a subjective decision.

 

[TTT15]

You may be interested in this Josh Mound essay at subjectivist haven Audiophilestyle. While I don’t generally share his beliefs about audio, Josh is a thoughtful and interesting guy. The impetus for the essay was a poor ASR review of a Harman non-compliant headphone by ZMF and the resulting back and forth between Amir and Zach(?) of ZMF.

Thanks I will have a read. ZMF didnt do anything for me so I may also have a preference for the harman curve. I really think the tonality of the Steakth was absolutely fine. It just wasn’t the most engaging headphone for me.

 

[solderdude]

Wade through this thread and you'll find most people don't own Harman compliant headphones and seem to have a preference for something.

'What headphone(s) do you own ?'

Aug 27, 2018

Just curious ...
What headphone(s) do you currently own ?
Which one(s) is(are) used the most, or is your favorite ?

• solderdude
• Replies: 2,989
• Forum: Headphones and Headphone Amplifier Reviews

• 

It was my intention to do something with the info but there is too much data.

 

[posvibes]

I think what the Harman Curve has done for me is made me aware of the shortcomings in a number of headphones I own. Being able to EQ those shortcomings away or at last mitigate their effect was very handy. The Harman curve allowed me to define my preferences.

At the moment I have no computer friendly parametric eq capability such as Peace/APO, so I have taken to listening to my headphone and IEM collection as they come straight out of the box.

Moondrop Chu II, Truthear Blue, Red, Hexa and Gato (all slightly different one to the other, and all more than acceptable to me without reservation.

Sennheiser HD650
Hi-Fi Man HE400i
AKG 371

All good. And from memory all of the above when EQ tweaked by Amin, the tweaking was minimal and perhaps lending an extra articulation to what was already there.

But when I listen to my open back Audio Technica AD500x or 900x, apart from their incredible comfort, I ask myself what was I thinking when I bought these?

I'm a Harman guy and I am very grateful the curve exists it has made my life so much simpler.

 

[TTT15]

Thanks I will have a read. ZMF didnt do anything for me so I may also have a preference for the harman curve. I really think the tonality of the Steakth was absolutely fine. It just wasn’t the most engaging headphone for me.

Thanks very much. You are right I did find the article interesting, thoughtful, worth reading and also well written whatever your views. It is good to get different perspectives. Having had a couple of bike fits I wish there was such a thing as a headphone personalised blind testing service.

 

[FTB]

The frequency response is only correct for the test dummy. Each person will hear a different frequency response from the same pair of headphones. Think of headphones like speakers - the measurements you see on Amir's Klippel is not what you are going to get at home.

It still gives an average response that is useful.

 

[mk05]

@mk05 are you still monitoring this thread?

Hello, just came back. Yes, good perspectives. At the end of the day, Harmon is a standard, meant to appeal to a large group of consumers. For me, a bit too bass heavy!

 

[TTT15]

Are there any blind tests of headphones to see what headphones people prefer not just based on the harman curve? Eg different types of technology/brand?

 

[Limopard]

I currently have both beyerdynamic DT 700 pro x and 900 pro x. They share the same drivers.

Adjusting to Harman using Oratory1990 works fine for the open back 900 but not that good for the closed back 700 (which needs more air / high shelf @9k and less shoutiness between 1k and 2k). Generally it's my impression that closed backs are harder (and more user dependant) to eq.

 

[Newman]

Are there any blind tests of headphones to see what headphones people prefer not just based on the harman curve? Eg different types of technology/brand?

Not to my knowledge. In any case, it is just not productive to emphasise design specifications (including type of technology) over performance specifications.

Almost any design element can be done well or done poorly, so execution is more important than any 'rules' about what type of driver or materials or construction.

That is why Dr Toole and other key players on ASR have adopted the approach of identifying the performance specifications that correlate with listener preference. Trying to come up with a design attribute / features 'order of merit' is almost futile and very likely to lead people to poor headphones with the 'right' features.

When we look to performance first and foremost, we can then celebrate the diversity of headphones that can deliver great performance, instead of getting lost in rabbit-hole discussions about features.

 

[Newman]

Hello, just came back. Yes, good perspectives. At the end of the day, Harmon is a standard, meant to appeal to a large group of consumers. For me, a bit too bass heavy!

Welcome back! Since you are here, I think some of the replies to your OP are a bit too diminishing of the importance and applicability of the Harman Curve to us as individuals. The "64%" figure is too easily dismissed as meaning that over 1 in 3 don't prefer it in a broad and general sense. That is misleading.

Sean Olive, the Harman researcher leading much of the project, provided a further update in late 2019. Across a large and diverse body of listeners, three distinct sub-groups existed:

1. ”Harman Curve Lovers”: This group, which constitutes 64% of listeners, includes mostly a broad spectrum of people, although they’re generally under age 50. They prefer headphones tuned close to the Harman curve.
2. “More Bass Is Better”: This next group, which makes up 15% of listeners, prefers headphones with 3 to 6dB more bass than Harman curve below 300Hz, and 1dB more output above 1kHz. This group is predominantly male and younger — the listeners JBL is targeting with its headphones.
3. “Less Bass Is Better”: This group, 21% of listeners, prefers 2 to 3dB less bass than the Harman curve and 1dB more output above 1kHz. This group is disproportionately female and older than 50.”

Your own admission about bass puts you into sub-group 3.

IMO it would be very misleading to interpret this as only 64% of listeners prefer the Harman (Headphone) Curve. Misleading because it leaves readers thinking that 36% don’t care for the curve and there is a huge amount of listener variation. Which is wrong.

In a nutshell, 100% of listeners prefer the Harman Curve to within 1 dB above 300 Hz, but below 300 Hz listeners split into 3 preference groups: 64% prefer the Curve within 2 dB, 21% prefer the Curve modified to -2 dB to -3 dB of bass, and 15% prefer the Curve modified to +3 dB to +6 dB of bass.

The underlined bit IMO is extremely important and gives a clue to how little human preference varies for sound quality in general. And even in the bass it’s the same curve, with tweaks to the level (not to the shape), and 100% of listeners fall into one of the 3 tweaks. IMO overall the message is one of remarkably high consistency in preferences: one only needs to ask a person if he or she is a bit averse to bass, or a bit crazy about bass, or neither, and you can pretty much hand him or her the target curve to look for in headphones. Wow. Even easier, just hand them the standard Harman Curve 100% of the time, and say there is a 1 in 3 chance they might want to apply a bass shelf of plus or minus a few dB to taste. Wow wow. No wonder Dr Toole describes us as stable and consistent measuring instruments.

 

[TTT15]

I just wondered how useful the harman curve actually is in helping to choose headphones and how. How do you know your preferences and to what extent do people’s actual headphone preferences correlate to the harman curve. If it was just the harman curve wouldn’t everyone prefer say the Dan Clark Stealth? For sure some do but it doesn’t seem to be the most popular. For sure based on the testing done there is a preference for the harman curve but to what extent does this translate to headphone preferences appears to be less clear. Maybe sales figures would be an indication.

 

[usern]

@TTT15 you are going around circles in this thread.

I've recommended JBL Tune headphones as cheap and good sounding wireless headphone and people have liked it, even though I only got to hear them just recently myself. They sound good as they should since they implement Harman work.

 

[TTT15]

I’m just trying to get to the bottom of the issue. Presumably manufacturers and retailers are in the business of selling headphones and consumers are in the business of buying headphones. The manufacturers and retailers presumably know how many of each product at each price point in each market segment they sell. Ultimately that is the measure that matters. Presumably at a certain price point people try what they are buying and the question is what headphones are people most willing to buy and to what extent does that correlate to the harman curve. The harman curve isn’t a secret to producers so presumably they know how relevant the harman curve is to their most important objective measure: Sales.