Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions.
Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Human's are generally speaking more similar than different. This also means that the statistical average will be the starting point with the highest probability of being close to personal preference. The reason to use the Harman target as standard is not to match every individual, but to have the most sensible starting point.
To match personal preference there is no way around using EQ.
Is there any objective evidence to say that humans are more similar than different. Not sure how you would measure that. We have a wide variety of tastes and preferences if you look at music with some commonalities. If we are very similar then isn’t EQ superfluous? If we are being objective then are humans very subjective?
You can say that a headphone measures better against the harman curve but I ‚m not sure you can say that makes it a better headphone at least not in my experience of trying most of the flagship headphones. For sure you could say that if someone prefers the harman curve then they are likely to prefer a headphone that measures close to the harman curve but then how do you know whether you prefer the harman curve or not.
And it seems to me that headphones are not just about tonality eg it seems that they have different soundstages and presentations. I for instance seem to prefer dynamic drivers over magnetic planars and electrostatics. I don’t know why but I suspect that harman curve measurement doesn’t capture that. I do know that if I just purchased something based just on harman curve measurements then I would have purchased something that I didn’t enjoy. So unless you can measure what I enjoy then I suspect the measurements are of limited value unless you think people should buy something they don’t enjoy. Then saying something is better because it is closer to the harman curve is a subjective judgement.
But Harman curve is not about 'better'. It is about a preference of the majority of listeners.
It also allows for a minority that prefers a bit more or a it less bass or even treble.
It also says nothing about seal issues, comfort, price, fit issues nor about the influence of output Z from an amplifier, longevity and other aspects.
Compliance to the Harman curve is only about the measured tonal balance on a specific test fixture under the same conditions.
Amir chose the Harman target as it was available for his fixture and is a quite well researched target.
But Harman curve is not about 'better'. It is about a preference of the majority of listeners.
It also allows for a minority that prefers a bit more or a it less bass or even treble.
It also says nothing about seal issues, comfort, price, fit issues nor about the influence of output Z from an amplifier, longevity and other aspects.
Compliance to the Harman curve is only about the measured tonal balance on a specific test fixture under the same conditions.
Then we are agreed. That is all I’m saying is that saying something is closer to harman curve doesn’t make something better just closer to a preference for some people. Just as pink cartoon characters are not an objective measure but a subjective judgement.
Thanks that is interesting and appreciated. Put the other way round 36% don‘t prefer. How do you know what you prefer? I happily paid for a bike fitting and suspect would happily pay for a blind loudspeaker and headphone test.
In my case though going into listening to different equipment ignorant of the measurements they appear to be of limited value as while I thought Dan Clark stealth and Topping were fine they didn’t give me the emotional connection to the music I’m looking for. It seems based on subjective listening and discovering the measurements afterwards that I do have a subjective preference for well measuring equipment but my subjective preferences don’t correlate to just one specific measure. So it seems for me that measurements are indeed useful for giving me a list of products that I potentially like or dislike but are not much help to me in determining which specific product I like fully acknowledging that I have subjective preferences.
You probably had false expectations from praising reviews while in reality this gear delivers clean audio and it's up to the content being listened to create emotions.
Thanks that is interesting and appreciated. Put the other way round 36% don‘t prefer. How do you know what you prefer? I happily paid for a bike fitting and suspect would happily pay for a blind loudspeaker and headphone test.
In my case though going into listening to different equipment ignorant of the measurements they appear to be of limited value as while I thought Dan Clark stealth and Topping were fine they didn’t give me the emotional connection to the music I’m looking for. It seems based on subjective listening and discovering the measurements afterwards that I do have a subjective preference for well measuring equipment but my subjective preferences don’t correlate to just one specific measure. So it seems for me that measurements are indeed useful for giving me a list of products that I potentially like or dislike but are not much help to me in determining which specific product I like fully acknowledging that I have subjective preferences.
To know if you prefer you have to try.
You tried Dan Clark, I daily use the AKG K371, a budget headphones known for its good compliance with Harman target. I have also IEMs that are close (Truthear zero red). I like these headphones so I know I'm an "harman guy".
Did you recognize yourself in the other 36% ? (less bass or more bass according to the PDF)
Actually in this case not as I had not any read reviews of the brands before listening. I had not even heard of many of the brands before listening. Some brands I had heard of and heard they had a good reputation or looked expensive and they also did nothing for me.
I just listened to lots of different products at HiFi shows and dealers. Very limited opportunity to do any kind of direct comparable tests. I did however at least listen to the same songs each time. Ultimately I’m just going for what I enjoyed the most which I subsequently found measures very well just might not be the highest SINAD or the closest to the harman curve.
I’m not convinced you should spend money on something you don’t enjoy or something that you haven’t heard just based on one particular measurement which hasn’t been proven to cover all aspects of human preferences associated with a purchasing decision.
I saw the ASR objectively survey somewhere and I was in the middle in that I do objectively recognise humans are subjective with different preferences.
To know if you prefer you have to try.
You tried Dan Clark, I daily use the AKG K371, a budget headphones known for its good compliance with Harman target. I have also IEMs that are close (Truthear zero red). I like these headphones so I know I'm an "harman guy".
Did you recognize yourself in the other 36% ? (less bass or more bass according to the PDF)
Thanks. I don’t know is the honest answer. I didn’t feel the tonality was the issue more the way magnetic planars present the music. I seem to prefer dynamic driver headphones if that makes any sense and I don’t know why other than they just seem well more dynamic. So for sure I think the harman curve is relevant and have nothing against it but not sure it covers everything about what makes a headphone enjoyable for everyone. I’m not seeking to make any claims though for those of a sensitive disposition.
It's great that you have the opportunity to listen lots of different products at HiFi shows and dealers, but vast majority of the world does not have such option. And if you eliminate Harman work, those people have no grounding knowledge for choosing headphones at all.
To know if you prefer you have to try.
You tried Dan Clark, I daily use the AKG K371, a budget headphones known for its good compliance with Harman target. I have also IEMs that are close (Truthear zero red). I like these headphones so I know I'm an "harman guy".
Did you recognize yourself in the other 36% ? (less bass or more bass according to the PDF)
Thanks. I don’t know is the honest answer. I didn’t feel the tonality was the issue more the way magnetic planars present the music. I seem to prefer dynamic driver headphones if that makes any sense and I don’t really know why others than they just seem well more dynamic. So for sure I think the harman curve is relevant and have nothing against it but not sure it covers everything about what makes a headphone enjoyable for everyone. I’m not seeking to make any claims for those of a sensitive disposition.
It's great that you have the opportunity to listen lots of different products at HiFi shows and dealers, but vast majority of the world does not have such option. And if you eliminate Harman work, those people have no grounding knowledge for choosing headphones at all.
A very fair and valid point. The ability to make direct comparisons is still very limited but certainly luckier than most and better than just relying on subjective reviews. There is a lot of gear while absolutely fine just sounds similar or doesn’t live up to subsequent reading of reviews or measurements. It was more useful for cutting through the hype and deciding what wasn’t for me.
I’m certainly not against the Harmon curve per se but then not sure how you can readily determine your preferences fit with Harmon curve or that any one measure captures everything that makes a headphone right for you.
It's great that you have the opportunity to listen lots of different products at HiFi shows and dealers, but vast majority of the world does not have such option. And if you eliminate Harman work, those people have no grounding knowledge for choosing headphones at all.
Even headphones with a strong track record of pleasing the majority may not necessarily work well for you personally. Sean Olive's research can't eliminate the variability among individuals.
Thanks. I don’t know is the honest answer. I didn’t feel the tonality was the issue more the way magnetic planars present the music. I seem to prefer dynamic driver headphones if that makes any sense and I don’t know why other than they just seem well more dynamic. So for sure I think the harman curve is relevant and have nothing against it but not sure it covers everything about what makes a headphone enjoyable for everyone. I’m not seeking to make any claims though for those of a sensitive disposition.
Dynamics is related to seal issue with DCA headphones. You should try the opposite of DCA in terms of planar headphone design where there's minimal to zero damping between the membrane such as Hifiman Susvara original. The pro of this design is that optimum seal is not needed at all. The consequence of such design is obviously harmonic distortion are much more audible, but it is pleasing distortion sound nonetheless. Subjectively, it leads to enhanced dynamics, slam, presence, relative to reference and accurate representation (DCA Stealth as an example). Susvara of course is NOT Harman Curve compliant in the bass region
Dynamics is related to seal issue with DCA headphones. You should try the opposite of DCA in terms of planar headphone design where there's minimal to zero damping between the membrane such as Hifiman Susvara original. The pro of this design is that optimum seal is not needed at all. The consequence of such design is obviously harmonic distortion are much more audible, but it is pleasing distortion sound nonetheless. Subjectively, it leads to enhanced dynamics, slam, presence, relative to reference and accurate representation (DCA Stealth as an example). Susvara of course is NOT Harman Curve compliant in the bass region
Thanks that is helpful ant interesting. I spent a couple of days at the world of headphones show and tried everything I could including the susvara with Topping, Ferrum, Cayin and Feliks Envy. I went to the show deliberately with very limited prior knowledge of brands, reviews and prices as I studied cognitive biases at University and didn’t want to prejudge anything as far as possible.
The Susvara was the best magnetic planar for my personal preferences. I could not notice any significant differences between Topping, Ferrum and Cayin although marginally preferred Ferrum but the one that really stood out was the Feliks Envy with the Susvara. I understand the Susvara needs a lot of current to drive it. Magnetic Planars are still not my personal preference although that is a can’t take it with you set up I may consider at some point as it stood out for me personally from everything else.
I think headphones are an an example of Xen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance whereby truth comes from where science meets art. Making a headphone is physics, maths and engineering but the human listener is subjective with different physiology and personal preferences which can’t be fully captured by science yet.
I certainly think you should look at measurements but my perception from lots of listening is you need to listen for yourself and should not make a judgement without having heard something for yourself with an open mind as far as possible. I’m not convinced you can determine the best headphones for you just on measurements and certainly not just based on subjective reviews although open reviews may give you an idea of what is worth trying. Some headphones may certainly measure better against a particular average of certain aspects but ultimately I think you should get what you enjoy the most.
I certainly think you should look at measurements but my perception from lots of listening is you need to listen for yourself and should not make a judgement without having heard something for yourself with an open mind as far as possible. I’m not convinced you can determine the best headphones for you just on measurements and certainly not just based on subjective reviews although open reviews may give you an idea of what is worth trying. Some headphones may certainly measure better against a particular average of certain aspects but ultimately I think you should get what you enjoy the most.
You just have to listen to a headphone (and feel the comfort) and either use the one you pick 'as is' or you can buy one that is close to what you seek (sound-wise) and simply tune it how you prefer it.
Does not matter if that is exactly according to a measurement or not.
Perfectly fine to use Oratory EQ suggestions for this (or any other one) as a 'starting point' and change the EQ to taste.
Oratory even mentions which bands can (and very likely should) be adjusted to taste.
Tastes differ, standards don't.
As the Harman curve has changed over the years, and with other fixtures might change a little again, it is clear that the Harman curve is not a 'standard fixed in stone' but a still evolving 'target for the masses' rather than a true standard.
I certainly think you should look at measurements but my perception from lots of listening is you need to listen for yourself and should not make a judgement without having heard something for yourself with an open mind as far as possible. I’m not convinced you can determine the best headphones for you just on measurements and certainly not just based on subjective reviews although open reviews may give you an idea of what is worth trying. Some headphones may certainly measure better against a particular average of certain aspects but ultimately I think you should get what you enjoy the most.
For the headphones I know best as I had these for a while, measurements exactly says how these headphones sound. Sennheiser HD58x : not enough bass and recessed treble, ATH-M50X : too much high bass around 100/200 Hz and some peaks in high frequency.
The Harman curve is a good start as it says well : 66% people like it, others want less or more bass so it is still covering 100% of people.
