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Harbottle Audio Subwoofers?

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sarumbear

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Then again :)

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nerdoldnerdith

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This is what is written on the page: RMS power. The sub had a single driver. Even if it’s only 9kW, we are still talking about the driver consuming 8.5kW heat. Where will that heat go? Your oven is around 2.5kW. Make a comparison…

ManufacturerFunk Audio
Enclouser TypeSealed
DriverProprietary to system
Dimensions (width, height, depth)22 in, 20.5 in, 22 in,
Total Volume5.74 ft3
Tuning FrequencyN/A
AmplifierPowersoft - Digam K10
Power (RMS)12000 W
Cost$2046
Custom DesignYes
That is because DB was testing the subwoofer with their own amplifier. I don't know if the Powersoft K10 can do 12,000 watts RMS or for how long if it can. I wouldn't be surprised if it can though. Powersoft amplifiers are some of the most powerful and efficient in pro audio. During the CEA burst tests 348 volts were being sent into the driver for a few cycles lasting milliseconds. That was about 20,000 watts of power. 12,000 watts for a few seconds isn't unreasonable based on those numbers.

Subwoofers aren't tested this way though. That much power for anything longer than such a short amount of time would cook the coil. To understand how the driver handles RMS power it is better to look at the compression sweeps.
 

jhaider

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Funk Audio and Harbottle use underhung motors with neodymium magnets and massive 5" voice coils. Designing subwoofers this way is wasteful if the goal is output per dollar, but they are designed with a different goal in mind, namely linearity and accuracy. The end result when you get them dialed in is bass that sounds perfect in every way.

I didn’t realize these were underhung. I have irrational soft spots for neo magnets and underhung drivers. That said, when I talked to Cody about a replacement for my Aurasound NS18-992-4a when it started making sad sounds he kept trying to sell me on a 15 for its 85L closed box, not understanding that I meant it when I wrote "fits the existing hole in my existing box" was a threshold criterion for a replacement woofer. I ended up buying a BMS 18 instead and truth be told I don't think there's a spec of difference after re-running DLBC. It meshed just fine with the Aurasound drivers in the other subs in the room. In terms of output the BMS is lower, but the subwoofer system in our living room is so wildly overspec'd (other subs are 2x Aurasound NS15-992-4A in 85L closed box, and dual opposed Aurasound NS12-792-4A in 65L closed box) that we'll never reach its limits anyway.

@sarumbear I don't doubt the Harbottle drivers are great, but I do wonder what there is to gain from shipping one across the Atlantic, compared to picking up an 18" B&C/BMS/18Sound/Eminence (the 18Sound "tetracoil" one seems very similar in design to the flagship JBL models) or even a 21" B&C/Eminence if you want larger, and I presume you can source any of those locally. Unless the novelty factor is a virtue here, which...fair enough. Underhung 5" diameter voicecoil in a neo motor does sound cool!
 
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sarumbear

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@sarumbear I don't doubt the Harbottle drivers are great, but I do wonder what there is to gain from shipping one across the Atlantic, compared to picking up an 18" B&C/BMS/18Sound/Eminence (the 18Sound "tetracoil" one seems very similar in design to the flagship JBL models) or even a 21" B&C/Eminence if you want larger, and I presume you can source any of those locally. Unless the novelty factor is a virtue here, which...fair enough. Underhung 5" diameter voicecoil in a neo motor does sound cool!
I am looking for a finished subwoofer, not a driver. The reason I was commenting on a single driver because that was the only test I can find from the manufacturer.
 
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sarumbear

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That is because DB was testing the subwoofer with their own amplifier.
I looked at the first line which said Manufacturer Funk Audio and then below it the power spec. I now realise that value has nothing to do with the test. They could have mentioned the building structure where they tested the driver or what they had at lunch... :mad:
 
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voodooless

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I looked at the first line which said Manufacturer Funk Audio and then below it the power spec. I now realise that that value has nothing to do with the test. They could have mentioned the building structure where they tested the driver or what they had at lunch... :mad:
Exactly :facepalm:
 

DevinCortno

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I looked at the first line which said Manufacturer Funk Audio and then below it the power spec. I now realise that value has nothing to do with the test. They could have mentioned the building structure where they tested the driver or what they had at lunch... :mad:
If I'm reading it right, they did most of the tests with the subs built in amp then only switched to the powersoft for the peak burst tests at the end.

I'm looking into Harbottle subs myself. I had a Funk, sold it to go to a multi sub setup using two Rythmik L12s because adding another 18" Funk would not have been an option costwise, or space wise.. And that was a huge mistake. I was better off with the single 18 and the uneven seat to seat response.

The Rythmiks are good no doubt but the Funk was on an entirely different level. Basically a perfect sub, I realize now. Two Harbottle 15s are probably what I needed all along...
 

nerdoldnerdith

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I looked at the first line which said Manufacturer Funk Audio and then below it the power spec. I now realise that value has nothing to do with the test. They could have mentioned the building structure where they tested the driver or what they had at lunch... :mad:
I'm not sure what you're mad about. They tested the sub with the built in amp first. Then they tested the sub as a passive unit with their own amplifier and listed the specs of the system being tested. There is more data to be gathered about a subwoofer when you use your own amplifier, so it is a useful test. The data for both configurations is available on the site.
 
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sarumbear

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If I'm reading it right, they did most of the tests with the subs built in amp then only switched to the powersoft for the peak burst tests at the end.
Please show me where you see the full subwoofer tested with its own amplifier on that page.

There is more data to be gathered about a subwoofer when you use your own amplifier, so it is a useful test.
I can’t imagine anyone will buy an active subwoofer in order to use its enclosure and separately. Do you take out an op-amp from an amplifier PCB and test by itself? If you disagree skip my post.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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I can’t imagine anyone will buy an active subwoofer in order to use its enclosure and separately. Do you take out an op-amp from an amplifier PCB and test by itself?

Anyway, that’s what I think. If you disagree skip my post.
Funk Audio offers the option to buy their subwoofers as passive units. They allow to customize basically anything. Testing the subwoofer with your own amplifier also allows you to measure the impedance and thermal limits of the driver. Data-bass seeks to gather as much data about the subwoofers they test as possible. I find the wealth of information they have provided to be very useful.
 
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sarumbear

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Funk Audio offers the option to buy their subwoofers as passive units. They allow to customize basically anything.
This is not stated on their website and if everything is customisable then there’s no need to assign a model number.

Testing the subwoofer with your own amplifier also allows you to measure the impedance and thermal limits of the driver. Data-bass seeks to gather as much data about the subwoofers they test as possible. I find the wealth of information they have provided to be very useful.
I am not interested in building my own subwoofers. I am interested on a device that has defined specs. I thought the thread title would have explained that.
 

DevinCortno

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Please show me where you see the full subwoofer tested with its own amplifier on that page.


I can’t imagine anyone will buy an active subwoofer in order to use its enclosure and separately. Do you take out an op-amp from an amplifier PCB and test by itself? If you disagree skip my post.
Oh I see what happened, you're on the wrong page. They tested the 18.0 three times. It's tested entirely with its own amp on 120v and 240 here and here. Then was tested again with the powersoft to get about 6db more output up top, and to show where the subs absolute limits were.

Either way, the results were excellent. The 120 volt test on the built in amp is what sold me on Funk. Less THD in the bass than you get from most tweeters in the treble.. maybe that's why it integrated so well with my mains.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Oh I see what happened, you're on the wrong page. They tested the 18.0 three times. It's tested entirely with its own amp on 120v and 240 here and here. Then was tested again with the powersoft to get about 6db more output up top, and to show where the subs absolute limits were.

Either way, the results were excellent. The 120 volt test on the built in amp is what sold me on Funk. Less THD in the bass than you get from most tweeters in the treble.. maybe that's why it integrated so well with my mains.
What measurements don't show is how clean the subwoofers sound mechanically. There is no air leakage or strange noises that you can get from cheaply assembled subs. They are dead silent except for the clean sound they produce.
 
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sarumbear

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Oh I see what happened, you're on the wrong page. They tested the 18.0 three times. It's tested entirely with its own amp on 120v and 240 here and here. Then was tested again with the powersoft to get about 6db more output up top, and to show where the subs absolute limits were.

Either way, the results were excellent. The 120 volt test on the built in amp is what sold me on Funk. Less THD in the bass than you get from most tweeters in the treble.. maybe that's why it integrated so well with my mains.
Thank you.

I’m looking at the 240VAC test. The distortion at 20Hz at around 105dBSPL is hitting 30%. This is pretty high distortion. Even a cheap 16” sub has much less distortion.
 

Everett T

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Has anyone experience with Harbottle Audio Subwoofers? On paper I am pretty impressed by them and their approach to driver design. I'm considering replacing my JBL passive sub with the following active unit from them. I run out of channels on my Amplitude 16, and instead of installing another power amplifier I thought maybe an active unit is a better option.

Aren't they associated with Nathan @Funk Audio?
 
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sarumbear

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What measurements don't show is how clean the subwoofers sound mechanically. There is no air leakage or strange noises that you can get from cheaply assembled subs. They are dead silent except for the clean sound they produce.
An FFT graph or a waterfall should show all superiors sounds for all speakers. Similar to a jitter test of a DAC.
 

DevinCortno

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Thank you.

I’m looking at the 240VAC test. The distortion at 20Hz at around 105dBSPL is hitting 30%. This is pretty high distortion. Even a cheap 16” sub has much less distortion.
I can't stand that guys' graph format... Are you sure you're reading the Funk's results correctly? There is no sweep showing THD at 105dB. The lowest the Funk was tested at for distortion was 115dB where it has 5.4% THD. At 124dB and 20hz, it's at about 27% (which, yes, is heavily distorted and doesn't even pass CEA-2010 which is far too permissive a standard for distortion anyway)... this is an output level the Monolith isn't even capable of, though.

I believe the 105dB @ 30% distortion number you're quoting is from the in-room test at the very bottom, which isn't a fair comparison. The THD would have been affected by any number of things at that point... nothing would be gated out, I believe, so a large distortion contribution would have come from the room itself screaming for mercy.
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Also worth noting the Monolith is a far larger sub... the Funk offers a lot more performance in a tidier package. Don't forget, there is a VERY significant premium attached to the construction of the Funk. All void free baltic birch, hardwood rounded edges, the two sides of the cabinet are curved inwards and I believe the cost by default includes an exotic wood veneer of your choice in a gloss stain finish. You can significantly reduce the cost by having something done in matte black, passive, and using a different amp that doesn't have the 10 band parametric EQ. Same with the Harbottle C18 sub linked earlier... the cabinet is made of carbon fiber!! Not cheap. Not cheap at all. Cost of the driver itself is "only" about $1,500 CAD. They're selling a B-stock sub with a completed box right now for about $1,700 CAD.

Data-Bass also tested much older revisions of the Harbottle subs under their "Ridge Audio" name.

21" driver in a sealed cabinet here

18" in a variety of ported & sealed setups here. Their subs generally do better in sealed boxes with a lot of wattage, if clean bass is the goal. If you want a ton of peak output over 20hz in a ported box, the Monolith would do just fine.. or something built around a pro audio sub.
 
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DevinCortno

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I thought so too. But it turns out that it's "just" baltic birch with a carbon fiber veneer.
It's described as a structural part of the cab on their loudspeakers... I assumed it'd be the same for the subs? Harbottle says its an integral part of the cab... and it'd be really weird for him to lie about anything. "The enclosure IS the composite, this is not made from composite materials and so the carbon aspect is a structural member of the subwoofer that compresses and damps the enclosure from the outside."
 

Killingbeans

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I mean.. he's not lying. But it's more of "jacket" than a through and through structural element:

 
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