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Harbottle Audio Subwoofers?

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sarumbear

sarumbear

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I can't stand that guys' graph format...
This is the crux of the matter. People testing with either no knowledge or care.

This is the FR chart. The sub output is around 105dBSPL at 20Hz on the chart titled 124dB.
0AC2E63E-E9E3-4A38-B349-7F042C91E0FF.jpeg


At that level distortion is 30%.

DFA9E290-5B25-4F4D-A748-B9ABB6C239B2.jpeg


I do not know what is different between the two tests, there’s no caveat that I can see.

Also worth noting the Monolith is a far larger sub... the Funk offers a lot more performance in a tidier package.
The specs says the opposite. This sub is 40% larger! Monolith is 38cm x 48cm x 50cm and this one is 50cm x 52cm x 50cm (W x H x D)

Don't forget, there is a VERY significant premium attached to the construction of the Funk. All void free baltic birch, hardwood rounded edges, the two sides of the cabinet are curved inwards and I believe the cost by default includes an exotic wood veneer of your choice in a gloss stain finish.
I’m sorry but I’m not buying a furniture.
 

voodooless

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It will play as loud at 120dB, with far less distortion, so there is that…
 

nerdoldnerdith

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Thank you.

I’m looking at the 240VAC test. The distortion at 20Hz at around 105dBSPL is hitting 30%. This is pretty high distortion. Even a cheap 16” sub has much less distortion.
You're comparing a sealed sub to a ported sub. Yes, the ported sub has lower distortion at 105dB and 20Hz because it is tuned to that frequency and capable of more output. The Funk is being pushed past xmax at that drive level so it naturally distorts.

One area where the ported sub will underperform is compression.

Audioholics doesn't publish compression sweeps compared to a baseline, so it's hard to see how much the subwoofer is compressing when you push it to that level. Funk Audio and Harbottle concluded from their testing that anything more than 1dB is audible and leads to unwanted forms of distortion. Even with the limited information Audioholics provides you can see that the Monolith is compressing by more than that at lower levels.

Like I said originally, you can't look at total output to understand how a subwoofer performs. It is about linearity.
 

nerdoldnerdith

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It will play as loud at 120dB, with far less distortion, so there is that…
It also needs to be emphasized that harmonic distortion is not as important as it is made out to be for subwoofers. It is a linear form of distortion and mostly benign. Nonlinear distortions are more important to consider. Unfortunately that data is rarely measured or published.
 
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sarumbear

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It seems other than one member who owns one and is happy with it, nobody else has any experience with Harbottle subwoofers, nor there is any test data about them. I will give it more time but I’m already enquiring about the Genelec beast.
 

DevinCortno

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This is the crux of the matter. People testing with either no knowledge or care.
Josh Ricci wrote the book on this stuff. You don't realize the new audioholics guy is running a small portion of the tests Ricci designed himself, while he wrote for Audioholics way back in the day. Audioholics review of the FW18.0 is here...
This is the FR chart. The sub output is around 105dBSPL at 20Hz on the chart titled 124dB.
View attachment 253321

At that level distortion is 30%.

View attachment 253322

I do not know what is different between the two tests, there’s no caveat that I can see.
The tests are the same, because the data-bass guy designed the testing battery. As I've said, if 20hz and up is all that matters, get a ported sub like the Monolith or Genelec or whatever. Harbottle/Funk stuff is not targeting the same goals and there is no need to spend that kind of money on their products. But as somebody who had one, response <10hz is a lot of fun and worth spending the cash to experience.
The specs says the opposite. This sub is 40% larger! Monolith is 38cm x 48cm x 50cm and this one is 50cm x 52cm x 50cm (W x H x D)
Your quoted measurement of the Monolith sub is no correct. A 16" circle is just over 40 centimeters across.... it is not possible to fit it into a baffle just 38cm wide. Monolith quotes measurements at 28.1" x 22.0" x 25.6" (715 x 560 x 650 mm) and weight at 170 pounds. Performance relative to cabinet volume is far, far higher on the Funk.
I’m sorry but I’m not buying a furniture.
Then, like I said, spec a cheaper Funk... although subwoofers this large are effectively furniture and will draw more comments than any actual piece of furniture in your house.
 
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sarumbear

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Josh Ricci wrote the book on this stuff. You don't realize the new audioholics guy is running a small portion of the tests Ricci designed himself, while he wrote for Audioholics way back in the day. Audioholics review of the FW18.0 is here...

The tests are the same, because the data-bass guy designed the testing battery. As I've said, if 20hz and up is all that matters, get a ported sub like the Monolith or Genelec or whatever. Harbottle/Funk stuff is not targeting the same goals and there is no need to spend that kind of money on their products. But as somebody who had one, response <10hz is a lot of fun and worth spending the cash to experience.

Your quoted measurement of the Monolith sub is no correct. A 16" circle is just over 40 centimeters across.... it is not possible to fit it into a baffle just 38cm wide. Monolith quotes measurements at 28.1" x 22.0" x 25.6" (715 x 560 x 650 mm) and weight at 170 pounds. Performance relative to cabinet volume is far, far higher on the Funk.

Then, like I said, spec a cheaper Funk... although subwoofers this large are effectively furniture and will draw more comments than any actual piece of furniture in your house.
I’m sorry for giving the wrong dimensions.

However, I do not understand why you keep talking about Funk when I’m asking about Harbottle?
 

DevinCortno

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I’m sorry for giving the wrong dimensions.

However, I do not understand why you keep talking about Funk when I’m asking about Harbottle?
As we've explained, Funk uses Harbottle designed drivers and amps... if you want to see performance of a finished Harbottle system, the Funks are the best built, most comprehensively objectively tested examples... as far as I know, they actually operate out of the same shop. I did link you to data-bass tests of Harbottle components in under their older company name, as well
 
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sarumbear

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As we've explained, Funk uses Harbottle designed drivers and amps... if you want to see performance of a finished Harbottle system, the Funk tests are the best built, most comprehensively objectively tested examples... but I did link you to data-bass tests of Harbottle components in under their older company name, as well
I want to see the tests or experiences of subs from the original manufacturer, thank you. Besides, according to Harbottle, they have multiple versions/levels of subs each using a different driver.
 
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sarumbear

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DevinCortno

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I want to see the tests or experiences of subs from the original manufacturer, thank you. Besides, according to Harbottle, they have multiple versions/levels of subs each using a different driver.
Then you're out of luck... If said tests existed I would have linked them, went for the closest comparable that was tested instead.

Harbottle stuff is all made to order. You can get the same spec as a Funk. Something optimized for <20hz, over 20hz, any diameter from 12 to 21. They have four motors available right now to suit any need, depending on what you find important. You understand, it's hard to find representative tests for products where every component is custom so sometimes you have to ballpark it instead.
 
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sarumbear

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Harbottle stuff is all made to order.
[…]
You understand, it's hard to find representative tests for products where every component is custom so sometimes you have to ballpark it instead.
I don’t understand why that is the case? Their subwoofers offering is below. There are two sizes, each at two performence levels (different drivers) and two power amplifiers. Why is it hard to get representative data?

 
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3ll3d00d

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bear in mind 2 things from this page

1) the spec is referenced to 1m whereas data-bass/audioholics are quoted as 2m rms, 1m peak is 9dB higher than an 2m rms value so depending on whether the above is peak or rms, it's only 96 or 99dB when compared to the other measurements shown in this thread
2) it only goes down to 30Hz so stops before excursion and power demands really start ramping up
 
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sarumbear

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bear in mind 2 things from this page

1) the spec is referenced to 1m whereas data-bass/audioholics are quoted as 2m rms, 1m peak is 9dB higher than an 2m rms value so depending on whether the above is peak or rms, it's only 96 or 99dB when compared to the other measurements shown in this thread
What is RMS and peak value of a SPL? SPL is a scalar quantity used to indicate the amplitude level of sound at a specific location in space. There is no RMS of it?

2) it only goes down to 30Hz so stops before excursion and power demands really start ramping up
Where do you see this? The manufacturer says otherwise.

 

voodooless

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What is RMS and peak value of a SPL? SPL is a scalar quantity used to indicate the amplitude level of sound at a specific location in space. There is no RMS of it?


Where do you see this? The manufacturer says otherwise.

Didn’t you want a closed sub? The Genelec is a reflex design.
 
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sarumbear

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Didn’t you want a closed sub? The Genelec is a reflex design.
I am re-considering after seeing what is around. No decisions yet.
 

3ll3d00d

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What is RMS and peak value of a SPL? SPL is a scalar quantity used to indicate the amplitude level of sound at a specific location in space. There is no RMS of it?
the tone burst is a windowed sine wave, assume it's referring to how SPL is computed from that (given the 3dB difference) but I can't find a definitive specification of that with a quick google. Most articles describing CEA-2010 make this point about historic use of 2m rms vs 1m peak btw (e.g. https://audioxpress.com/article/cta-2010-a-better-way-to-measure-subwoofers or https://data-bass.com/#/articles/5cc0bc36a75a260004255c88?_k=rl5g70) so it's something you have to bear in mind when comparing data from different sources. I cannot say if this applies to that genelec spec as they don't state how this value was obtained.

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kl...System/PDF/S44_TBM_Tone_Burst_Measurement.pdf is the closest thing I can find to describing the calculation method in cea-2010, it might be sufficient to explain.
Where do you see this?
in your post I quoted, your highlight is in red, my addition (and the bit I was referring to) in blue

1672404284718.png


The link to the 7382A also references 30Hz as the lower bound so I would guess this is consistently used across their specs (unless otherwise stated).

1672404473763.png
 

Harbottle Audio

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https://www.harbottleaudio.com/ldlcguarantees this applies to every aspect of design and manufacturing on an end use basis.. in your home.. what you hear.. listening to content, not sweeps or tones.
https://www.harbottleaudio.com/xmaxguarantee this applies to all drivers, raw and in finished products.
https://www.harbottleaudio.com/1percentguarantee this forces us to produce identical product over years of time, as our drivers haven changed in years, neither have their acoustic behavior.

data bass does not test anymore. the above links show our guarantee structure in lieu of testing, superseding warranty and forcing extreme qc in manufacturing.
all output measures/specs conform to ldlc and are conducted at 2pi 2 meter.

I run a small company. If you want clarification, please contact me directly and I am happy to discuss.
 
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Adi777

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@sarumbear Hi. What with subwoofer? You bought something? :)
Regards
@Harbottle Audio Hi. Can you explain something? On Harbottle Audio website I see the measurements for 24 inch subwoofer L2 version. Can these results be compared to the results of various subwoofers on Data Bass? I don't know, maybe I don't understand something, but why, for example, at 10Hz is as much as 38% THD+N? It's from 2 meters, the same like on DB.
 
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sarumbear

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