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Harbeth speakers

DWI

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Maybe I am confused but here is a picture I found supposedly of the C7E3 and it looks like a small speaker to me -



Here's a big speaker for comparison

The C7 was designed to be the smallest possible speaker with the 8" Radial driver. So it is designed for people who want a small speaker.
 

DSJR

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Let’s be honest they are virtually identical, the only changes probably being forced upon the manufacturer by cessation of manufacturing.
Keith
They LOOK virtually identical, but there have been significant changes in perceived sound balance in the XD version. Not sure if the Radial 2 formulation performs any differently to the original, despite one or two 'ingredients' needing to be replaced in the later cone formula. Is it any of our business as consumers though? I can say the SHL5's to the Plus version had various driver, crossover and damping changes, the crossover revisions being the biggest change. I think the main thing with the Anniversary model (ignoring the visual only terminals and wacky veneers) was posh poly caps (which many owners claimed did subjectively make the sound better). Hearing the 5-XD but on a separate occasion, I wouldn't say there's a huge change compared to the Plus model, but if push came to shove, my minds interpretation of the sound might suggest a further improvement in clarity and greater ability in a passive design to 'hear into' a recorded mix, which is something the favourite active monitors here would do with consummate ease! All personal subjective vibes so ignore if you want :)

I asked ages ago how boom could be identified in an anechoic style frequency response and I'm not sure it can be. Group delay (if I read it right) might help and possibly analysing the output of the port as referenced to the bass driver, but boom is a time delay thing as I understand it. Prior to Klippel NFS, I gather it was more difficult to measure the bass end as regards the mids and highs (MLSSA did ok, but not sure how that compares these days).

I've known the Compacts ever since the first totally unrelated model in the late 80's. The smaller thin-wall box could in the past give mid bass percussive sounds a kind of 'tubby' quality which to me was worst of all in the 7-ES3, but having said this, it did seem eternally room and stand dependant back then and they sold well for many years I gather. A short lived floor standing version (K6) made the tubby quality worse if anything but maybe pulling well out from room boundaries made it more acceptable. I've gone on here and on the HUG just how much 'better' the C7-XD model sounds, especially on the music I play (first album I heard them with was by Yello - doesn't matter which one as they all 'sound' very good for the genre:D and imaging was excellent for me that morning).

Can I add that although the smaller three models in the Harbeth line could be termed 'bookshelf,' IN NO WAY could I ever recommend they be used as such without lf equalisation.

P.S. The Monitor 30 series is the smallest of the 8" driver models and identical in box size to the LS5/9 from which it was initially derived. The C7 is both taller and I think, slightly deeper too (without looking at the official specs)
 
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Ken Tajalli

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Juts came across this thread. I've heard Harbeth speakers at many an audio show. All I can say about them is that if I wanted a 1970's speaker I'd buy a 1970's speaker.

Martin
You and I (possibly many others) won't buy them, though I remember them sounding good, but I bet they are big in Japan!
Fed by some Luxman (70's) amps, listening to LP's.
Just a guess.
 

DSJR

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Last development was Radial 2 many, many, many years ago.
Later on maybe different screws
Last 'development' was in the Anniversary and XD series. Crossovers can be adjusted and components refined as developments too you know ;) Driver mechanicals/suspensions can also be changed with no obvious visual clues and so can magnet flux to a degree, all the while looking similar to what went before.
 

DSJR

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You and I (possibly many others) won't buy them, though I remember them sounding good, but I bet they are big in Japan!
Fed by some Luxman (70's) amps, listening to LP's.
Just a guess.
Guess away, I fear you're quite wrong :D
 

LTig

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Maybe I am confused but here is a picture I found supposedly of the C7E3 and it looks like a small speaker to me -

It seems you have never seen a really small speaker with a 5" or 4" woofer.
 

ahofer

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You and I (possibly many others) won't buy them, though I remember them sounding good, but I bet they are big in Japan!
Fed by some Luxman (70's) amps, listening to LP's.
Just a guess.
I have a pair of SHL5+(AE) in my living room, powered by an nCore amp / RME DAC / USB direct from a Roon server.
 

LTig

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As long as you're fully aware of the graphic equaliser that valve amps typically turn into when tracking the rollercoaster impedance curve exhibted by speakers such as these (across most makes incidentally). You may like the noises coming out, but it's not what the designer intended.
There is a much cheaper way to get the same roller coaster FR with a decent solid state amp: just add a sufficiently large resistor between the amp and the speaker.

Of course the perfect solution is using EQ and tone controls.
 
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ThoFi

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Last 'development' was in the Anniversary and XD series. Crossovers can be adjusted and components refined as developments too you know ;) Driver mechanicals/suspensions can also be changed with no obvious visual clues and so can magnet flux to a degree, all the while looking similar to what went before.

My answer is related to automotive, as Alan Shaw likes to do.
Harbeth „development„ and Anniversary models are like car manufacturers do update the software calibration of their automatic transmissions or engine controller.
The fact is that this is not a new „development„ and not a reason to make a new version and to increase the price dramatically as Harbeth. Car manufacturers don't do that this way.
 
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ThoFi

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I have a pair of SHL5+(AE) in my living room, powered by an nCore amp / RME DAC / USB direct from a Roon server.

I have a pair of SHL5+(AE) in my living room, powered by an tube amp / Linn Akurate DSM DAC-Pre-streamer / Lan from Router Tidal and Qobuz server.
 

DSJR

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My answer is related to automotive, as Alan Shaw likes to do.
Harbeth „development„ and Anniversary models are like car manufacturers do update the software calibration of their automatic transmissions or engine controller.
The fact is that this is not a new „development„ and not a reason to make a new version and to increase the price dramatically as Harbeth. Car manufacturers don't do that this way.
Oh I don't know. Car manufacturers have been charging far more than the extra cost of the parts for top trim models than the base models for decades - and it's been documented the profits on top spec examples are way higher. Harbeths cost this much now because Alan discovered his thin-wall and antique regurgitated 'BBC models' competition were objectively and subjectively inferior to his own highly developed designs, yet his were cheaper. This, coupled with the huge success of the 40th anniversary issue range which took him totally by surprise (and which all but stopped the previous established versions in their tracks for a while I gather), caused him to take the current commercial decision, which appears to be a good commercial decision for him.

ASR has tested a good few active professional models which would interest me far more. I'm thinking Neumann 310's for example which aren't huge, aren't too silly priced, have good built in amps and offer optional grilles I gather. The ability of all these active models to subtly fine tune the tonal balance to help room interaction a little is also a huge appeal. Visuals as in bling-fi/eye-fi no longer appeal after all this time (been there and done it all decades ago)
 
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ThoFi

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Oh I don't know. Car manufacturers have been charging far more than the extra cost of the parts for top trim models than the base models for decades - and it's been documented the profits on top spec examples are way higher. Harbeths cost this much now because Alan discovered his thin-wall and antique regurgitated 'BBC models' competition were objectively and subjectively inferior to his own highly developed designs, yet his were cheaper. This, coupled with the huge success of the 40th anniversary issue range which took him totally by surprise (and which all but stopped the previous established versions in their tracks for a while I gather), caused him to take the current commercial decision, which appears to be a good commercial decision for him.

ASR has tested a good few active professional models which would interest me far more. I'm thinking Neumann 310's for example which aren't huge, aren't too silly priced, have good built in amps and offer optional grilles I gather. The ability of all these active models to subtly fine tune the tonal balance to help room interaction a little is also a huge appeal. Visuals as in bling-fi/eye-fi no longer appeal after all this time (been there and done it all decades ago)

I am not talking about top trim models because that’s a different story.
I talk about development/ innovations and pricing.
Harbeth increases their prices extraordinary without big development / innovations lets say the last 15 years, the „after Radial 2“ period.
This ridiculous.
 

DSJR

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No it isn't and for the reasons I posted (you did read my reply didn't you?)

Business is totally different to doing what's fair for the little person. I'd have failed badly at running a business and if you think Harbeth is ripping people off, look at the other highly expensive high end brands out there. I'm going out on a limb but I'd suggest that if a speaker is made in China, no matter how well, I doubt the ex-works price would be hugely high at all. In past years not too long ago, a speaker at £400 in the UK would come in at little more than fifty quid (and twenty years back, I have it on good authority that a popular £320pr model landed in the UK at $14pr boxed).

UK made products often suffer in this home market to protect export prices. ATC used to give foreign distributors a further discount to help price parity. It's a cut-throat market out there and Harbeth isn't a part of the Harman/Samsung empire as yet, although it's quite large in independent UK manufacturer terms!

I wish I had Alan's dedication and ability to steer and grow his company the way he's done. The domestic worldwide market is fickle and other companies haven't done so well. Many posts ago, myself and others suggested you look elsewhere for cutting edge speakers. For various reasons, if I could afford a bling tower like a higher priced Revel or Magico, I couldn't live with it unless there were full length grilles to hide those ghastly white coloured or shiny drivers you all lust over :D I'm allowed a personal opinion here just as you may well dislike old fashioned veneered dumpy boxes like Harbeths! I just feel there may be some sour grapes coming in here.
 
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ThoFi

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No it isn't and for the reasons I posted (you did read my reply didn't you?

Business is totally different to doing what's fair for the little person. I'd have failed badly at running a business and if you think Harbeth is ripping people off, look at the other highly expensive high end brands out there. I'm going out on a limb but I'd suggest that if a speaker is made in China, no matter how well, I doubt the ex-works price would be hugely high at all. In past years not too long ago, a speaker at £400 in the UK would come in at little more than fifty quid (and twenty years back, I have it on good authority that a popular £320pr model landed in the UK at $14pr boxed).

UK made products often suffer in this home market to protect export prices. ATC used to give foreign distributors a further discount to help price parity. It's a cut-throat market out there and Harbeth isn't a part of the Harman/Samsung empire as yet, although it's quite large in independent UK manufacturer terms!

I wish I had Alan's dedication and ability to steer and grow his company the way he's done. The domestic worldwide market is fickle and other companies haven't done so well. Many posts ago, myself and others suggested you look elsewhere for cutting edge speakers. For various reasons, if I could afford a bling tower like a higher priced Revel or Magico, I couldn't live with it unless there were full length grilles to hide those ghastly white coloured or shiny drivers you all lust over :D I'm allowed a personal opinion here just as you may well dislike old fashioned veneered dumpy boxes like Harbeths! I just feel there may be some sour grapes coming in here.

Sorry, I do not want to be offensive but you didn't understand/answer my points.
And by the way I never said that I don’t like the look of the Harbeth or I do like/prefer cutting edge speakers.
 

ahofer

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I’m perpetually mystified by how animosity can develop over our relative preferences.
 
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ThoFi

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It's simple. People who are outside of our own psychogical "sphere" are perceived as threats. It's a basic survival reaction. Civilization has simply substituted different target values. Jim

Yes, this is true at audio and what you have e.g. in the „Harbeth sphere HUG“.
Follow them or you’ll be blocked, moderated,
There will always be 2 camps, the objectivist and subjectivists.
I personally do not say that measurements are useless. They show us tendencies, yes.
I think Harbeth are nice speakers but they also have their flaws.
To not see the other side any more, and following pied pipers blind, is arrogant and socially dangerous.
Nowadays, because of the internet, its a social desater that everyone thinks that he knows everything.
e.g. the COVID subject. It looks like we have countless virologists…
 

ahofer

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Yes, this is true at audio and what you have e.g. in the „Harbeth sphere HUG“.
Follow them or you’ll be blocked, moderated,
There will always be 2 camps, the objectivist and subjectivists.
The interesting thing about HUG is that Shaw enforces objectivism..up to the point of discussing his speaker’s measurements or disagreeing with his points about, say, Klippel/NFS measurement.

I wish he would engage and discuss the Harman curve, etc. Unfortunately, I have to assume the reason he doesn’t is because his favored design doesn’t (and probably can’t) conform. But I don’t think his audience would care, so I don’t get why he doesn’t just embrace and discuss the way his speakers measure.
 
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