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Harbeth speakers

ahofer

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I was banned by Paul Yoo's unofficial Harbeth Facebook group for arguing for science and proper engineering, and for posting links to measurements of the exotic snakeoil electronics favoured there.
They didn’t ban me, but I got a lot of ignorant condescension. I make it a point only to voice my objectivism when someone is *contemplating* or *advocating* a ridiculous purchase (usually wire, but often amps). I leave the sunk costs alone.

One person responded to my $10k challenge by saying he would, but flying would damage his ears.

I think I did post Primaluna measurements once.
 

DSJR

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The price increase is due to the fact that Harbeth's new network of dealers and appraisers has agreed to cooperate. As a result, everything doubled overnight.
Where did you get that from?

NO WAY have priced 'doubled overnight!!! My SHL5's were £2500 or so back in 2009 and today they'd be £3500 or so. The current re-imagined LS5/9 from Rogers (the design long ago improved on by the Harbeth M30 series) is £4800 thr pair, that's just one hundred quid less than the far superior SHL5+XD. Graham's re-imagined LS5/9 (with largely similar response errors the BBC designed in deliberately I gather) are admittedly cheaper than the M30.2XD but I bet they won't be for long! Spendor's 2cu sized boxes were around six UK grand last I looked (and their main long standing designer went to Harbeth a year ago!) and not forgetting the resurrected LS3/6 and Graham alternative that Derek Hughes designed, based it appears from the old Spendor SL1/2 thoughts.

The so-called competitors making BBC-legacy thin wall boxes along with re-imagined BBC antique monitors (almost all inferior to the current Harbeth line) were charging rather more than Harbeth. The incredible success of the 40th anniversary models caused Alan to pause and think about his business strategy and I believe he felt aggrieved that inferior old fashioned boxes were selling for more than his more up to date versions - he went out and bought samples of competing products and was reportedly horrified at what he saw (and 'you lot' think Harbeth are out of date!!!). The XD models arguably are as far as the existing model line can go he's admitted, but he has no intention of sitting on his laurels and has reportedly taken on extra design staff to move the brand forward (he's certainly well aware of Klippel and we felt he may be using such devices in production at least if not the design stage (different types I gather). he may be in his mid 60's now, but I'm sure he feels the brand has a long way further to go, but each step will be very carefully considered and VERY thoroughly researched. As it is at the current prices and compared with other popular makes at similar prices, Harbeth are still rather better sounding, having lost much of the bloated 'porty' bass of old and the lower kHz dip tamed substantially in the Anniversary and XD models. What's happened? Lovers of 'a nice tone' now complain that the XD series is too 'bright' and not 'charming' or 'organic' enough, where peeps like me absolutely LOVE the more neutral balance and more 'open mouthed' nature of the XD line (may not please thre genelec/Neumann fans, but I feel the XD's are a damned sight closer now than they've ever been to these much admired active models)...

What I see happening on the HUG is new owners from a 'subjective based audiophile' rather than music loving perspective asking all manner of half-educated questions and not initially understanding at all the more objective replies some of more experienced bods can give. These people wouldn't have looked twice at Harbeth at the older price levels, but price tags mean enhanced status (remember the TuneTot review here with comments on the price? You could buy three pairs of P3-XD's for one pair of these!).

Speakers like the above are well off my radar and when I let go of the SHL5's I'm using in a room far too small for them as designed, I'll need to look at the mighty marvels coming along now at far better prices. As has been repeated in the TuneTot review, there are still many possibly more mature people out there who are happy to pay the price for a carefully designed and universally good sounding speaker and wouldn't give house room to the bare fronted and plain ugly pro models we're all raving about. Had I the funds, I'd look first to the ATC classic models, preferably in active form as I knew and loved the 50A and owned a pair of very much missed 100A's before marriage and a new life-chapter took over. These are three to four times the price of a pair of SHL5-XD's.

Harbeth as a current model in XD trim wouldn't so too badly on a site like this, but come on, we're chasing state of the art with top value here and looking to the better pro models to get there. At least the KH310's have optional grilles but they're designed as working tools for professionals, not pieces of furniture when not in use....
 

DSJR

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Is that Paul Yoo page going? I was told I was mental for selling my Revox B77mk2 twin track IEC eq high speed machine plus the master copies of recordings I had because the CD's I had made from the original tapes sounded better. I tried to log onto the page to find it had disappeared entirely from my browser's perception, so assumed I'd been totally blocked from further views...

By the way, IN NO WAY am I colluding with Alan here. I was too much of a maverick for years and forbidden to post on the HUG until some dialogue between us began again (I've known Alan and dealt with him since he bought the business and knew Dudley and the brand itself from its inception in 1977). Even now, some posts I make don't make it, but as it's repeatedly stated it's a MANUFACTURER'S site, I have to take it on the chin. He despairs of my love of the reproducing gear (love of music is without question), but I can't totally dismiss my decades selling and comparing the stuff and that's why i haven't ditched all my stash of crap basically and bought some nice Neumann actives (my wife asks me about the ATC 20 Classics as she liked the sounds from those - they're 25% dearer now than the 1992 price plus inflation! - why do you think they've brought out the cheaper-box 19v2's!!)...

Harbeth are incredibly successful for a basically small business (compared to B&W and KEF for example). The people who used to buy their speakers generally kept them for many years, used models only coming for sale as part of the owner's estate quite often. Those days are changing now, but people generally like what they buy from them and it's serial box swappers that tend to put them up for sale at a year or two old...
 

ahofer

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it's serial box swappers that tend to put them up for sale at a year or two old...
I should snag a pair of 40XD from one of these. $24k new is a bit...really rich.
 

John Atkinson

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I have R3's
Just got Harbeth SHL5 plus
Working on optimizing their placement.

imo the Harbeth's sound much more relesdtic, voices and acoustic instruments.

I bought a returned set, open box, yes, more than the KEF, but not as much as you might think. The best I've owned to date. They do not lack bass for the music I listen to.
The KEF are great, but imo as far as realism, the Harbeth's imho by a good margin.

The stuff at 20 kHz is an artifact of how they measured them: Stereophile
I've actual room responses, flat with the tilt.


615HLS5fig4.jpg
As always, when posters reproduce content from Stereophile, I request that they include a link to the original webpage. In this case it is https://www.stereophile.com/content/harbeth-super-hl5plus-loudspeaker-measurements

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
 

Willem

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assumed I'd been totally blocked from further views...
That is precisely what happened to me as well: I was unceremoniously blocked from the site, presumably because I ciriticised the snake oil nonsense with dry scientific argument. It is also a very aggresive site, with personal insults that are not stopped by the moderator.
 

ahofer

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The stuff at 20 kHz is an artifact of how they measured them
I think the super-tweeter integration isn't great, but I could be wrong. It matters not at all to me as I can only hear up to around 12khz.
 

Ingenieur

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JaccoW

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Please hold down your horses, I'm here enjoying the freedom of speech (which I couldn't do on HUG) and I've known Harbeth since they were happy to sell their boxes directly from their factory.
Relevant XKCD:

Rl4TWuZ.png
 

ahofer

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Well hang on, I'm not showing him the door, I don't even know what he's saying yet.

I find that XKCD cartoon a little glib, though, in the face of non-government heckler's veto, etc.. I subscribe to Mill's thoughts on Freedom of Speech (https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/872/on-liberty). Mob censure can indeed be wrong.

But we are on an audio forum, and forum moderators/owners are free to do as they like, however.
 

JaccoW

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Well hang on, I'm not showing him the door, I don't even know what he's saying yet.

I find that XKCD cartoon a little glib, though, in the face of non-government heckler's veto, etc.. I subscribe to Mill's thoughts on Freedom of Speech (https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/872/on-liberty). Mob censure can indeed be wrong.

But we are on an audio forum, and forum moderators/owners are free to do as they like, however.
He is not banned yet and people have yet to yell at him. But complaining that he was banned and his freedom of speech was limited in another forum is 'by definition' not true.

Being cancelled is more subtle, especially if it is because something you said or did decades ago. People need to have a chance to redeem themselves and grow. Just because someone made a misogynistic comment in the 70's (when that was common) should be a shameful memory. Not a reason to cancel his show now. Especially if they have adressed and disavowed it.

And I am from the school that thinks that sometimes freedom of speech should sometimes be restricted. Someone is You're welcome to disagree but I have no patience and will not offer someone another cheek if they do not at the very least respect my opinion. Tit for tat is a very succesful evolutionary strategy for a reason.

But this might also be a European vs. US difference in mindset. Freedom from vs. Freedom to.
 
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Ingenieur

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Freedom of speech only applies on the 'courthouse steps' and in the press.
Not private spaces.
If someone insults my wife or kids (I'm fair game) in my home they are being ejected.
By their 'free will' or mine.
 

ahofer

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He is not banned yet and people have yet to yell at him. But complaining that he was banned and his freedom of speech was limited in another forum is 'by definition' not true.

Being cancelled is more subtle, especially if it is because something you said or did decades ago. People need to have a chance to redeem themselves and grow. Just because someone made a misogynistic comment in the 70's (when that was common) should be a shameful memory. Not a reason to cancel his show now. Especially if they have adressed and disavowed it.

And I am from the school that thinks that sometimes freedom of speech should sometimes be restricted. You're welcome to disagree but I have no patience and will not offer someone another cheek if they do not at the very least respect my opinion. Tit for tat is a very succesful evolutionary strategy for a reason.

But this might also be a European vs. US difference in mindset. Freedom from vs. Freedom to.
We are OT and flirt with having this speech abridged, but I certainly respect your opinion. After all, that is part of a broader free speech value system.
 

DSJR

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I think the super-tweeter integration isn't great, but I could be wrong. It matters not at all to me as I can only hear up to around 12khz.
As I understand it, there is some interference of the two tweeters over 20khz, but Stereophile clouded it just a touch as the Stirling LS3/6 was measured on the main tweeter axis, but for some reason, the SHL5+ was measured on the second 'super tweeter' axis. It was then of course confirmed in the dispersion tests that the correct alignment was actually the main tweeter, the second tweeter added perhaps for marketing and visual reasons? - so many users take the grilles off when listening despite pleas not to as per usage instructions. Excess resonances over 20kHz mean absolutely nothing to most listeners of such speakers, as we tend to be older I feel. What I CAN hear and actively dislike, is the crossover region response dip that so many speakers have or even exaggerate (I gather Mr Gundry would be horrified had he known his name was subsequently given to such an artefact).
 

ahofer

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What I CAN hear and actively dislike, is the crossover region response dip that so many speakers have or even exaggerate
Harbeths don’t have the “dip” in on-axis response. There is a notch approximately there in lateral dispersion of this speaker, however.
 

DSJR

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Harbeths don’t have the “dip” in on-axis response. There is a notch approximately there in lateral dispersion of this speaker, however.
OH YES THEY DID!!! :D - If not now, but there's a *very* gentle dip in the 30.2-XD if you squint ;)

My SHL5's have a 3dB drop around these frequencies which you can just see in the room plots posted earlier in this thread (mine are 30th anniversary ones when the brand was promoted as 'The warm natural sound of Harbeth'). The sub 100Hz bass in-room was a huge issue in this room but tamed with foam plugs from ebay seller 'Swanndeals' (older 5's need the 75mm pluig with small hole in the middle). It was also clearly visible in the Stereophile plot of the pre 'Plus' version but I was silly and didn't save it when it was online (it's only the Plus now posted online and these are much flatter and with better bass 'tone' in terms of boom). A graphic equaliser doesn't really work I found, but the more recent crossovers for whatever reason, do seem far less intrusive on the signal and I *imagine* that mere response tuning isn't all there is here ;)

The Anniversary models onwards do seem to me to have taken this brand to a far more neutral and engaging balance with a livelier more 'truthful' tone (some old-school owners don't like them as much and eq them back to how they were - someone did this on the HUG with 40.2's I remember) and the 7XD, 5XD and I'm sure the 40XD are the best they've ever been, the 7-XD especially. I find they can play rock music better without sounding as if a blanket has been placed over the tweeters and I wish them well. Not saying these XD models are as good or 'open' as a modern pair of our favourite brand actives, but I believe they're closer than ever and still 'cheap' compared to many touted but inferior bling-box domestic confections sold by 'high end' dealers.
 
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Ingenieur

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Thank you for the many years of subscribing.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
Your measurements/tests/reviews are one of the reasons I continue to do so.

Just got my renewal notice, lol
 

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ThoFi

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The last weeks I did have fun listen to different hifi gear / combinations.
My main speakers are the SHL5 40An. Tube amp and class D amp.
I had the chance to listen to cheap speakers, Markaudio-Sota cesti mb (€1.000)and Sound Artist SC8b (€500)
I run them with the tube amp or the Class D.
Totally surprised how good this cheap speakers did sound and how much fun I had.
Especially the budget Chinese Speaker Sound Artist did sound amazing.
To me there is also no harshness etc…
This makes me rethink about all the expensive speakers out there.
There is also much snake oil about speakers, also about Harbeth speakers.
 

Ingenieur

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The last weeks I did have fun listen to different hifi gear / combinations.
My main speakers are the SHL5 40An. Tube amp and class D amp.
I had the chance to listen to cheap speakers, Markaudio-Sota cesti mb (€1.000)and Sound Artist SC8b (€500)
I run them with the tube amp or the Class D.
Totally surprised how good this cheap speakers did sound and how much fun I had.
Especially the budget Chinese Speaker Sound Artist did sound amazing.
To me there is also no harshness etc…
This makes me rethink about all the expensive speakers out there.
There is also much snake oil about speakers, also about Harbeth speakers.
The sc8b is $1,400 https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...4141125_0,prmr:1,pid:3044147067264141125,cs:1

These are $1,000
Look like the same design and coax driver, different packaging
Sell the snake oil and buy a few sets?
 
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