Harbeth speakers

[richard12511]

What's wrong with that? Isn't that generally what people around here recommend?

There seems to be an inclination to dump on Shaw, even in the cases where his general philosophy about audio money allocation - put your money in to good speakers, don't get sucked in to the expensive amp and cable racket - matches what most here would endorse themselves.

Agreed. I really appreciate AS' consistent advice to not waste big money on electronics that don't really change the sound.

 

[ThoFi]

I do see it in a different way. You can buy excellent and cheaper speakers than Harbeth and electronics.
But Alan Shaw's approach to badmouthing other brands and naming them is mean. He creates a strong opinion and only that one is right. Everything else is wrong and does not accept them.
e.g. Tube amps are bad, and anyone who likes them is ‘stupied‘.
And for me it is not correct to advice buying cheap electronics from e.g. Asia and advice to spend all the money to his overpriced Harbeth. This is misleading and strong marketing only!

 

[MattHooper]

Agreed. I really appreciate AS' consistent advice to not waste big money on electronics that don't really change the sound.

Yes.

As I recall, even when he did his "anniversary" edition speakers with the "upgraded" internal wiring, capacitors etc, he was on record as being
skeptical of any sonic differences rendered by this, but recognized there is an audiophile faction who go in for this stuff. Basically "Look, I don't think this makes any difference, but for those who want it, here you go..."

 

[JJB70]

I do see it in a different way. You can buy excellent and cheaper speakers than Harbeth and electronics.
But Alan Shaw's approach to badmouthing other brands and naming them is mean. He creates a strong opinion and only that one is right. Everything else is wrong and does not accept them.
e.g. Tube amps are bad, and anyone who likes them is ‘stupied‘.
And for me it is not correct to advice buying cheap electronics from e.g. Asia and advice to spend all the money to his overpriced Harbeth. This is misleading and strong marketing only!

I don't think he says"I am right, everyone else is wrong", he has strong opinions but that's not the same thing. And many of his opinions are actually pretty mainstream (at least for ASR). Harbeth sell to a certain demographic who like their products. They may represent the ultimate development of older speaker concepts but they are still well designed, and AS is no idiot. Nobody needs to spend a lot on audio equipment, it is a discretionary purchase and it is surprising just how little you need to spend if all you want is to enjoy music. This may seem ridiculous given that this is an audio gear forum but my honest opinion is that audio gear doesn't really matter. However I can see why Harbeth have a loyal following and have often thought of buying Harbeth speakers. And I would much rather listen to an opinionated but intelligent voice like AS than the normal marketing speak

 

[ThoFi]

My experiences with Harbeth I own.
P3ESR SE: €2.000
elevated bass with boom and starts distortion at higher spl. No balanced FR in-room
C7ES-3: (€2.600)
Boomy bass and not dynamic with limited high frequencies. no balanced FR in-room
SHL5+ 40 An: (€5.500)
more dynamic and better bass than C7.
Tricky with positioning, narrow sweet spot and the high frequencies (poor off-axis performance?) can be nasty. no balanced FR in-room.
Marketing gimmicks such as WBT binding posts and ‚better inner wiring‘ , new veneer (walnut).
WBT and wiring has no benefit to the sound. The veneer was not exclusive for the Anniversary.
In general the SHL5+ has bi-wiring only for marketing, also the super-tweeter is marketing BS (Alan Shaw said)…

With none of my Harbeth I am totally happy because each has its flaws.
I used very different amps, +100W SS, +100W Hypex Class D, +100W Hybrids, 50W tube amp.
And because of the price I can’t recommend.
Just my experiences.

 

[Phorize]

I do see it in a different way. You can buy excellent and cheaper speakers than Harbeth and electronics.
But Alan Shaw's approach to badmouthing other brands and naming them is mean. He creates a strong opinion and only that one is right. Everything else is wrong and does not accept them.
e.g. Tube amps are bad, and anyone who likes them is ‘stupied‘.
And for me it is not correct to advice buying cheap electronics from e.g. Asia and advice to spend all the money to his overpriced Harbeth. This is misleading and strong marketing only!

His advice on electronics is precisely what one would receive here, save the spat about the Behringer amp a while back. If I had a complaint, it would be that the HUG forum covers detailed discussion about the design and objective performance of every conceivable product except Harbeth speakers-it’s why I don’t really participate there TBH. I wish he’d just release full measurements and be more open about the designs, but ultimately he’d likely wipeout half his balance sheet if he did it suddenly. Without wanting to make this a political issue any company director would be a total idiot to switch from a working sales strategy at the precise point that the U.K entered (objectively speaking) the most hostile export environment for SMEs it has seen for 50 years.

 

[ThoFi]

Harbeth and HUG criticise and complaining others measurements but do not share their own ones. that's embarrassing

 

[Phorize]

Harbeth and HUG criticise and complaining others measurements but do not share their own ones. that's embarrassing

Let’s not start embellishing the facts here. I’ve never seen AS complaining about or criticise other brands, save advising that the QC on $200 dollar amplifier may not be best in class. What I have seen is good advice on amplification, and yes, a failure to publish measurements of their own products. That’s a shame in my book, but hardly rare. How many of the products that Amir recommends come with full transparency from the manufacturer on measured performance? Some but by no means a majority. As I said, on a cost/performance basis Harbeth are not the most compelling speaker out there, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a rationale for buying them.

 

[thewas]

I think ATC, Spendor, Proac, PMC, and others seem committed to UK manufacturing.

Its a good and clever selling argument to keep the prices multiple times higher than if manufactured abroad (although am sure than even made in UK they could be offered quite cheaper ), a unique selling point for the "tradionalist" audiophiles.


Now about audio science and AS/HUG, they use it when it fits them (like for amps as they don't offer such) but please don't start asking about measurements and spinoramas of their own loudspeakers as you risk getting banned quickly.

 

[Mart68]

His advice on electronics is precisely what one would receive here, save the spat about the Behringer amp a while back. If I had a complaint, it would be that the HUG forum covers detailed discussion about the design and objective performance of every conceivable product except Harbeth speakers-it’s why I don’t really participate there TBH. I wish he’d just release full measurements and be more open about the designs, but ultimately he’d likely wipeout half his balance sheet if he did it suddenly. Without wanting to make this a political issue any company director would be a total idiot to switch from a working sales strategy at the precise point that the U.K entered (objectively speaking) the most hostile export environment for SMEs it has seen for 50 years.

I'd guess that like the rest of the UK hi-fi manufacturers the vast majority of Harbeth sales are to the Far East so not affected by Brexit.

 

[DSJR]

My experiences with Harbeth I own.
P3ESR SE: €2.000
elevated bass with boom and starts distortion at higher spl. No balanced FR in-room
C7ES-3: (€2.600)
Boomy bass and not dynamic with limited high frequencies. no balanced FR in-room
SHL5+ 40 An: (€5.500)
more dynamic and better bass than C7.
Tricky with positioning, narrow sweet spot and the high frequencies (poor off-axis performance?) can be nasty. no balanced FR in-room.
Marketing gimmicks such as WBT binding posts and ‚better inner wiring‘ , new veneer (walnut).
WBT and wiring has no benefit to the sound. The veneer was not exclusive for the Anniversary.
In general the SHL5+ has bi-wiring only for marketing, also the super-tweeter is marketing BS (Alan Shaw said)…

With none of my Harbeth I am totally happy because each has its flaws.
I used very different amps, +100W SS, +100W Hypex Class D, +100W Hybrids, 50W tube amp.
And because of the price I can’t recommend.
Just my experiences.

P3 ESR - main thing is the need for free space to balance the bass, which to me isn't elevated when used that way.

C7-ES3 - I've already said I hated the bloody things in a UK brick and plaster kind of room. C7-XD is NOT like this. Now sounds more like the 5+-XD which to me does seem a little more transparent than the standard Plus version although I've no direct proof of this.

Anniversary was done for that reason alone and it shook AS how well they continued to sell with their funny veneers and bling sockets and so on (the 'better' caps were initially also for marketing reasons but all who compared 'claimed' to hear improvements). He turned on his now ex sales manager for under-estimating the business potential I remember.

Buy-Wiring was a fad from twenty to thirty years back and done to follow fashion. The speakers were well enough behaved not to need it.

The important thing here is, their market LOVED the anniversary models at their higher prices (exclusivity) and to ensure no lack of future sales, the XD models are higher again. What's happened? - continued full order books going forward and praise from owners on the new models..

Look, I accept that for many here, it's money for old rope. I for one don't like the looks of multi-driver tower speakers with bling all round them to set them apart. Dynaudio and Focal are technical level competitors here in the UK (wish PMC was but it isn't) and both these brands, Dynaudio especially in their popular ranges, set the prices high in the UK as well, so we're screwed if we're not well off new retirees (the age group who buy them generally).. As for the rest of us, Amir has tested a huge number of cheaper boxes and some of them perform very well indeed, so I'd suggest leaving Harbeth to their appreciative captive audience and moving on frankly.

Interesting, no mention of Spendor these days. It'll be interesting to see how they do now their main designer's gone.

 

[DSJR]

His advice on electronics is precisely what one would receive here, save the spat about the Behringer amp a while back. If I had a complaint, it would be that the HUG forum covers detailed discussion about the design and objective performance of every conceivable product except Harbeth speakers-it’s why I don’t really participate there TBH. I wish he’d just release full measurements and be more open about the designs, but ultimately he’d likely wipeout half his balance sheet if he did it suddenly. Without wanting to make this a political issue any company director would be a total idiot to switch from a working sales strategy at the precise point that the U.K entered (objectively speaking) the most hostile export environment for SMEs it has seen for 50 years.

He's always welcomed third party testing in the past and many models have been measured around the world BUT, the ignorance of many reviewers has irked him and he's now requesting that tech reviewers visit the factory to see how and why they do what they do. For example, the Stereophile measurements on the 5+ put the mic at upper tweeter level rather than the main one, although JA? did acknowledge the mistake in his comments. The then competing Spendor SP1 version was measured on the main tweeter axis... All this in the days before Klippel!

How many manufacturers clearly and honestly provide FULL measurements of their products? A few do today, but I feel they're in a minority and at the end of the day, I can say that most HiFi system purchasers owners generally don't or certainly didn't read the press or visit online forums such as this. I do appreciate that this can breed dishonesty on product design, but I'd never ever have put Harbeth in this category and as I've said before, Alan being a marketing man as well, has followed what's gone on and studied his craft extensively, his products evolving over the decades rather than 'next best thing since sliced bread' new models which may actually be worse than the previous generation (how many times have I read that here?).

 

[ThoFi]

He's always welcomed third party testing in the past and many models have been measured around the world BUT, the ignorance of many reviewers has irked him and he's now requesting that tech reviewers visit the factory to see how and why they do what they do. For example, the Stereophile measurements on the 5+ put the mic at upper tweeter level rather than the main one, although JA? did acknowledge the mistake in his comments. The then competing Spendor SP1 version was measured on the main tweeter axis... All this in the days before Klippel!

How many manufacturers clearly and honestly provide FULL measurements of their products? A few do today, but I feel they're in a minority and at the end of the day, I can say that most HiFi system purchasers owners generally don't or certainly didn't read the press or visit online forums such as this. I do appreciate that this can breed dishonesty on product design, but I'd never ever have put Harbeth in this category and as I've said before, Alan being a marketing man as well, has followed what's gone on and studied his craft extensively, his products evolving over the decades rather than 'next best thing since sliced bread' new models which may actually be worse than the previous generation (how many times have I read that here?).

The Stereophile story is well know and been discussed a lot.
So why AS talking about these wrong measurements and why is he not sharing his measurements.
No work for him at all…
For me too much talking about that and the improvements in FR of the latest versions.
I didn’t see any measurements/ evidence…
HUG claims to be science based…
I propose AS should send his speaker to Amir for adequate measurements

 

[DSJR]

Very few reviews on the XD models for reasons given above. I think a few are trickling through now as distributors send them?

How many manufacturers DO actually share measurements? How many of these are standardised (Harman I believe use different smoothing to Amir although it could be another manufacturer)

I believe (sighted subjective) that the 'improvements' in the XD models go deeper than a mere frequency response pl;ot - the truth here will come out eventually.

HUG is 'citizen scientist' based, slightly different to Hydrogen Audio perhaps?

AS sending Amir his speakers to test? Why should he feel the need to do that? Anything that deviates from a very narrow viewpoint is annihilated here, although that may well change as the two generic sides interact more with each other (I'm not singling Harbeth alone out, but PMC, B&W, ATC, Graham Audio and Rogers too, these latter two resurrecting old speaker antiques and they don't provide measurements either, although ATC used to years back in their 'white papers' and were proud of them!)

 

[Willem]

Thomas, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Harbeth: you keeep disparaging them ever since Alan Shaw criticized you for pushing audiophool nonsense about amplifiers, and posting purely subjective impressions about the speakers. You are just trying to take revenge because he exposed your ignorance. Sorry to be so direct, but so is your vendetta.

 

[Willem]

As for engineering innovations: Harbeth have actually acquired a Klippel some time ago, apart from their existing and quite extensive measurement gear. And as was said, they have expanded their R&D staff. Right now Alan Shaw is experimenting with class D amplification, and I would not be surprised to see an active speaker sometime in the future (but who knows?).

 

[thewas]

Harbeth have actually acquired a Klippel some time ago

But am sure not the big and expensive NFS but just the usual driver laser based testing device which nowadays almost every serious driver manufacturer has, right?

apart from their existing and quite extensive measurement gear

Could you please copy the list here if its posted in the HUG for people who have no account there?

 

[ThoFi]

As for engineering innovations: Harbeth have actually acquired a Klippel some time ago, apart from their existing and quite extensive measurement gear. And as was said, they have expanded their R&D staff. Right now Alan Shaw is experimenting with class D amplification, and I would not be surprised to see an active speaker sometime in the future (but who knows?).

Interesting.
can you please share more details about the measurement gear and the expanded R&D staff?

 

[Willem]

can you please share more details about the measurement gear and the expanded R&D staff?

All on the HUG site.

 

[ThoFi]

All on the HUG site.

oh, sad news.
so no details available here….