The mostly agreed reference level is 85 dB SPL, a speaker should be flat at that SPL, then. Seriously, don't drown in the kool-aid, loudness compensation is something that should be done upstream from the speaker, not as a builtin equalization, as this makes no sense; cf RME ADI-2 mode or https://github.com/dpapavas/alsaloudness.
Look at the curve for 80dB. Doesn't it look like the frequency response of the Harbeth M30 reviewed in this thread?
The BBC dip must be off-axis and was to avoid their tiny speakers from sounding shrill in the specific environment that is the broadcasting van. Yamaha's "BBC dip" isn't actually one, it's tuning for a flat power response, Toole talks about it a bit in his book.The BBC dip is really just the dip in the Fletcher Munson curve. You see it in all BBC-inspired designs and even in something like the Yamaha NS1000M, whose frequency response can be found here:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Yamaha-NS1000.htm
The correct solution is a proper loudness control - not a switch but something like a volume pot. AFAIR Yamaha amplifiers had those in the 80ies, and Marantz AVRs offer dynamic volume with adjustable threshold. The setting depends on both recording and playback level and therefore it makes no sense at all to build one fixed curve into a loudspeaker.I did not read through all 23 pages of this thread. But I have been reading a lot of what Alan Shaw writes on his forum.
The response curve of Harbeths, like most BBC designs, respect the Fletcher-Munson curve. The aim is to have a "full, rich" sound at low to moderate volumes. Basically, a little like the "loudness" button on older integrated amplifiers.
A perfectly flat frequency response curve would sound, to a human being, lacking in bass (and therefore warmth) when played at low to moderate volumes. A thin anemic sound.
A speaker designed respecting the equal loudness curve would sound much better at low to moderate volumes.
For myself, I would never buy a speaker without a frequency response like Harbeths since I measure with my phone typically 60 dB in my listening position.
For myself, I would never buy a speaker without a frequency response like Harbeths since I measure with my phone typically 60 dB in my listening position.
Your reasoning I can absolutely follow, unlike some others above. I suppose it depends on your level of engagement with the gear. The majority of users want a plug and play solution. For instance, many still do not use room dsp.The correct solution is a proper loudness control - not a switch but something like a volume pot. AFAIR Yamaha amplifiers had those in the 80ies, and Marantz AVRs offer dynamic volume with adjustable threshold. The setting depends on both recording and playback level and therefore it makes no sense at all to build one fixed curve into a loudspeaker.
I have neighbours both sides of my house, separated by a single layer brick wall. I am always shocked at how loud others play their music when I visit them.Audiophile: I want my system to replicate a live performance
Also Audiophile: I listen at 60dB.
Seriously though, I think your phone is not accurate. 60dB is really quiet - for example an acoustic guitar 10ft away is louder than that.
The correct solution is a proper loudness control - not a switch but something like a volume pot. AFAIR Yamaha amplifiers had those in the 80ies
He needs new woofers. That would open up a new era for Harbeth. He has ridden the Radial horse till it...To Willem - Not sure the Klippel references went down well though and I post with link I made wasn't published
By Alans admission, Harbeths of old were definitely warm and 'safe' toned (the M30 original as measured here was a special case in this version as explained much earlier in this thread - the 30.1 tilted the response almost to flat (approx. > +2dB at 10kHz over th eversion tested here I recall).. Starting with the P3ESR and continued with the SHL5+ introduced nearly ten years back, the responses were rather flatter and subjective bass 'tautness/damping' was improved (not sure a pure response plot would show this as I can't find responses on the SHL5 compared to the 5+ for example).
The M30 is twenty years or so old and designed initially as a refined replacement for the rather odd BBC LS5/9 as I said earlier (I compared these to my own 5/9's). The 30.1 was intended for a wider market and the different bass tuning performance over the slightly taller Compact 7ES3 won it many friends, thus justifying continuing the model. The current 'XD' range moves things forward again a little and it's likely according to Alan that not much more can be done with these designs as he caims to have taken them about as far as he can. With Spendor's Terry Miles on board, a different skill-set is now available without rocking the boat too much I suspect.
The BBC dip is really just the dip in the Fletcher Munson curve. You see it in all BBC-inspired designs and even in something like the Yamaha NS1000M, whose frequency response can be found here:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Yamaha-NS1000.htm
Above, the most studied and measured loudspeaker of all times: the LS3/5a. It's just like a curve in Fletcher Munson.
It's really a dip and a bass boost.
He needs new woofers. That would open up a new era for Harbeth. He has ridden the Radial horse till it...
I thought the intention behind the XD and Anniversary models were to make lots of cash for Shaw...The Radial cone gives very natural mids and isn't as 'flexible' as poly cones are. Have you heard the XD models - very different perceived balance and same cone... I'd say he needs a tweeter re-think myself
Look at the curve for 80dB. Doesn't it look like the frequency response of the Harbeth M30 reviewed in this thread?
On Harbeth's forum Shaw has said that with the XD release, he feels has reached the limit of what he could accomplish with their current driver design. Harbeth does have new drivers in development.He needs new woofers. That would open up a new era for Harbeth.
I understand that Harbeth loudspeakers are designed to have flat on-axis frequency response. Here is a test measurement of one such Harbeth loudspeaker, the M30.2 Anniversary Edition, taken from an Australian HiFi review (here). The response is quite flat.The response curve of Harbeths, like most BBC designs, respect the Fletcher-Munson curve. The aim is to have a "full, rich" sound at low to moderate volumes. Basically, a little like the "loudness" button on older integrated amplifiers.
The response curve of Harbeths, like most BBC designs, respect the Fletcher-Munson curve. The aim is to have a "full, rich" sound at low to moderate volumes. Basically, a little like the "loudness" button on older integrated amplifiers.
But I am not sure this is true for the Harbeth speakers, nor that Alan Shaw claims it is.
I understand that Harbeth loudspeakers are designed to have flat on-axis frequency response. Here is a test measurement of one such Harbeth loudspeaker, the M30.2 Anniversary Edition, taken from an Australian HiFi review (here). The response is quite flat.