Harbeth Monitor 30 Speaker Review

[milosz]

I like a nice BBC dip with Triscuit crackers, myself.

 

[witwald]

The BBC dip is really just the dip in the Fletcher Munson curve. You see it in all BBC-inspired designs ...

It doesn't appear to have been a design goal in the development of the LS3/5A loudspeaker, which is of BBC design. Below is a measurement of the LS3/5A taken from the relevant BBC report. There seems to be no sign of the dip in the on-axis response that was referred to. It would seem that the BBC tended to be aiming for a flat on-axis response.

Source: Harwood, H.D.; Whatton, M.E.; Mills, R.W. The design of the miniature monitoring loudspeaker LS3/5A. BBC RD 1976/29, October 1976. PDF available here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/rdreport_1976_29.

 

[witwald]

All those "BBC old school designs" have still today some presence dip, if not on axis in the sound power due to the relatively large midwoofer crossed relatively high where they already beam before the tweeter without a waveguide takes over which is radiating wider.

It tends to be a bit difficult to break the laws of acoustics. There is a very large difference in radiating diaphragm size when partnering an 8-inch woofer to a 1-inch tweeter. Of course, that doesn't mean that the resulting loudspeaker cannot sound quite good.

Does anyone have any examples of a loudspeaker system that uses something along the lines of an 8-inch woofer, 3-inch midrange and 1-inch tweeter? That would seem to be reasonably capable of addressing the directivity behavior that is part and parcel of the 8-inch/1-inch loudspeaker design philosophy.

 

[thewas]

Does anyone have any examples of a loudspeaker system that uses something along the lines of an 8-inch woofer, 3-inch midrange and 1-inch tweeter? That would seem to be reasonably capable of addressing the directivity behavior that is part and parcel of the 8-inch/1-inch loudspeaker design philosophy.

For example some of the ATC SCM 3-way models (without waveguides), the Neumann KH310 (with waveguide), the famous Yamaha NS-690/1000 series and even some older Dynaudio models and am sure quite some more.

You can do a similar concept also with 6,5" woofer, 2" mid and 0,75" tweeter, I even have made such as a DIY project

 

[dougi]

It tends to be a bit difficult to break the laws of acoustics. There is a very large difference in radiating diaphragm size when partnering an 8-inch woofer to a 1-inch tweeter. Of course, that doesn't mean that the resulting loudspeaker cannot sound quite good.

Does anyone have any examples of a loudspeaker system that uses something along the lines of an 8-inch woofer, 3-inch midrange and 1-inch tweeter? That would seem to be reasonably capable of addressing the directivity behavior that is part and parcel of the 8-inch/1-inch loudspeaker design philosophy.

Well, my Heritage Lintons are 1"/5"/8" and there are a few measurement sources for those. Off axis (apart from usual tweeter beaming and a small off-axis 1kHz dip, is pretty good, eg even the Stereophile measurements.

 

[farley88]

Does anybody can share the crossover schematic for Harbeth M30?

 

[Spocko]

Does anyone have any examples of a loudspeaker system that uses something along the lines of an 8-inch woofer, 3-inch midrange and 1-inch tweeter? That would seem to be reasonably capable of addressing the directivity behavior that is part and parcel of the 8-inch/1-inch loudspeaker design philosophy.

If you want to address specific weaknesses of the Harbeth 30 while preserving certain characteristics of their drivers, you can always go custom! I asked @Dennis Murphy to build me a 3-way speaker with Accuton Cell system (tweeter + 2" mid) with 7" Revelator Woofer designed for max accuracy in the vocal/dialogue section with excellent directivity behavior (for mixing/mastering in my small 10' x 9' x 8' studio). Below are the horizontal off-axis measurements at 45 degrees and 80 degrees, respectively (well done Dennis!):

45 degrees

80 degrees

And with the 7" Revelators ported, my in room response is at least F3 40Hz (10' x 9' x 8') and ultimately a well controlled full range speaker (for my purposes at least) that serves both my mixing and mastering needs (and with such controlled directivity, I can easily EQ them to taste/room).

So if there is a specific directivity behavior you'd like from your 3-way design built to spec, then definitely talk to Dennis before considering paying used prices for any passive 3-way speaker from ATC or the compromises posed by a 2-way tweeter + 8"-woofer combo. It's also cool to have a legend like Dennis build your speakers too

 

[617]

I asked @Dennis Murphy to build me a 3-way speaker with Accuton Cell system (tweeter + 2" mid) with 7" Revelator Woofer designed for max accuracy in the vocal/dialogue section with excellent directivity behavior (for mixing/mastering in my small 10' x 9' x 8' studio). Below are the horizontal off-axis measurements at 45 degrees and 80 degrees, respectively (well done Dennis!):

45 degrees
View attachment 183574

80 degrees
View attachment 183575
And with the 7" Revelators ported, my in room response is at least F3 40Hz (10' x 9' x 8') and ultimately a well controlled full range speaker (for my purposes at least) that serves both my mixing and mastering needs.

So if there is a specific directivity behavior you'd like from your 3-way design built to spec, then definitely talk to Dennis before considering paying used prices for any passive 3-way speaker from ATC. It's also cool to have a legend like Dennis build your speakers too

Any pictures?

Also to answer OP's question, a good speaker to look at is the Revel Ultima Gem. I think I saw spinoramas of it and they were basically faultless.

 

[Spocko]

Any pictures?

Also to answer OP's question, a good speaker to look at is the Revel Ultima Gem. I think I saw spinoramas of it and they were basically faultless.

Pictures to come soon! They're packed in boxes as my studio is being renovated to add better acoustic paneling, motorized standup desk, etc. Here's a picture of the empty room that will soon house these speakers:

 

[Spocko]

... good speaker to look at is the Revel Ultima Gem. I think I saw spinoramas of it and they were basically faultless.

Revel Gems were my dream speakers at one time - heard them at a showroom back in the day and wow. I regret never hearing the Gem 2 - I heard they were pretty great as well.

 

[Thomas_A]

If you want to address specific weaknesses of the Harbeth 30 while preserving certain characteristics of their drivers, you can always go custom! I asked @Dennis Murphy to build me a 3-way speaker with Accuton Cell system (tweeter + 2" mid) with 7" Revelator Woofer designed for max accuracy in the vocal/dialogue section with excellent directivity behavior (for mixing/mastering in my small 10' x 9' x 8' studio). Below are the horizontal off-axis measurements at 45 degrees and 80 degrees, respectively (well done Dennis!):

45 degrees
View attachment 183574

80 degrees
View attachment 183575
And with the 7" Revelators ported, my in room response is at least F3 40Hz (10' x 9' x 8') and ultimately a well controlled full range speaker (for my purposes at least) that serves both my mixing and mastering needs (and with such controlled directivity, I can easily EQ them to taste/room).

So if there is a specific directivity behavior you'd like from your 3-way design built to spec, then definitely talk to Dennis before considering paying used prices for any passive 3-way speaker from ATC or the compromises posed by a 2-way tweeter + 8"-woofer combo. It's also cool to have a legend like Dennis build your speakers too

Interesting; what is the on-axis response of that? I was wondering if the total energy in the room would be to bright when going for wide-dispersion speakers, when the on-axis is basically flat? I have two-ways with "rather wide dispersion" up to 8 kHz or so, and I do have tamed the >3 kHz response a bit lower to get a more natural response. Below an old measurement (not exactly as it is now small peak around 1 kHz is damped a bit) of on-axis, 45° and 75°.

 

[bloomdido]

Haven't found this link posted on this thread before - this is Australian Hi-Fi article with some measurements of Monitor 30.1, the direct successor to the model Amir reviewed: PDF

As mentioned in this thread before 30.1 are noticeably more linear and the downward slope is much smaller but as an owner of a pair of M30.1s I can say they still sound quite "rolled off". Compared to many other speakers the soundstage is perceived to be very much behind the speakers and it's interesting that posters in this thread mentioned the same effect present with original Monitor 30 model. I would also notice that M30.1 have the same "non-fatigueing" quality to them just like what was mentioned about the original M30 but in case of M30.1 without any signs of "BBC dip" on FR charts - or could that be due to the difference in measurement methodology?

 

[witwald]

A link to the Australian HiFi review of the Harbeth M30.2 40th Anniversary model can be found here. This version in the M30 series is possibly the model just before the current M30.2 XD series.

 

[DSJR]

A link to the Australian HiFi review of the Harbeth M30.2 40th Anniversary model can be found here. This version in the M30 series is possibly the model just before the current M30.2 XD series.

Not sure how comparable the response plots are to a Klippel type, but note the slight remaining 'bump' between 100 and 200hz and the now very slight scoop between 1.5 and 6kHz. A VERY different result from it's now distant ancestor measured here in this review. The XD I understand, isn't so different to the Anniversary models which proved too successful I gather, despite far higher pricing.

I suspect the latter slight 'scoop' is a genuinely intended thing (Spendor tended to put a gentle lift here in more recent models and older-fashioned listeners who revere the ancestor BC1 didn't like it!) and the mid bass rise a characteristic I believe, of the box/driver interaction and the 'LS5/9 concept' design (the C7-XD model isn't like this I remember).

 

[tuga]

Not sure how comparable the response plots are to a Klippel type, but note the slight remaining 'bump' between 100 and 200hz and the now very slight scoop between 1.5 and 6kHz. A VERY different result from it's now distant ancestor measured here in this review. The XD I understand, isn't so different to the Anniversary models which proved too successful I gather, despite far higher pricing.

I suspect the latter slight 'scoop' is a genuinely intended thing (Spendor tended to put a gentle lift here in more recent models and older-fashioned listeners who revere the ancestor BC1 didn't like it!) and the mid bass rise a characteristic I believe, of the box/driver interaction and the 'LS5/9 concept' design (the C7-XD model isn't like this I remember).

View attachment 183688

The caption desribes the plot as an "In-room frequency response using pink noise test stimulus with capture unsmoothed. Trace shown is are the averaged result of nine individual frequency sweeps measured at three metres, with the central grid point on-axis with the tweeter."
It's hard to believe that the range below 300Hz was measured in a room at 3 metres though, it's so tidy/smooth. Unless the room is professionally treated.

 

[bloomdido]

The caption desribes the plot as an "In-room frequency response using pink noise test stimulus with capture unsmoothed. Trace shown is are the averaged result of nine individual frequency sweeps measured at three metres, with the central grid point on-axis with the tweeter."
It's hard to believe that the range below 300Hz was measured in a room at 3 metres though, it's so tidy/smooth. Unless the room is professionally treated.

They mention "9 individual sweeps" and "central grid point" - could it be that they do 1 sweep on-axis and 8 others off-axis in different directions formin a symmetrical "grid"? Averaging those to one curve could remove many cancellation dips... probably

 

[DSJR]

Shows how unreliable hearing-alone listening is, but when I compared the C7-XD to the 30.2-XD in a quite lively room which favours speakers like this, I did find the 30.2-XD a little 'fuller' in tone, the C7-XD a total transformation over the plump, ripe and to me, ploddy C7-ES3 predecessor (some rooms and tastes loved this old fashioned warmer safe sound and they sold well internationally I gather). The C7-XD wasn't as 'full bodied' in basic subjective tone as the 30.2-XD but the bass did seem to go down slightly further (slightly bigger box) and to me, the 7-XD sounded far more like the larger 5+-XD in overall balance, which I regarded as a good thing.

I know, it's all subjective, but Harbeth have apparently tried hard to minimise the losses in the passive crossover and subjectively, I think it works. Such a shame the higher end domestic prices will deprive so many of the pleasure - and yes I know, I'm looking hard at the smaller Neumann and Genelec active models which don't have distributor and dealer margins anything like this much - KH310's with optional grilles (hopefully not too sonically intrusive) make so much more sense to people here and arguably to me eventually now ATC prices are also through the roof

 

[Spocko]

Interesting; what is the on-axis response of that? I was wondering if the total energy in the room would be to bright when going for wide-dispersion speakers, when the on-axis is basically flat? I have two-ways with "rather wide dispersion" up to 8 kHz or so, and I do have tamed the >3 kHz response a bit lower to get a more natural response. Below an old measurement (not exactly as it is now small peak around 1 kHz is damped a bit) of on-axis, 45° and 75°.

View attachment 183664

It actually would be, it was designed this way to my specs as this is for me to more easily identify and fix noise/artifacts in the vocal range - I wanted to make sure "it's there" so I can then EQ it to taste as my needs dictate; I prefer to attenuate peaks rather than raise dips.

 

[witwald]

Not sure how comparable the response plots are to a Klippel type, but note the slight remaining 'bump' between 100 and 200hz and the now very slight scoop between 1.5 and 6kHz. ...I suspect the latter slight 'scoop' is a genuinely intended thing (Spendor tended to put a gentle lift here in more recent models and older-fashioned listeners who revere the ancestor BC1 didn't like it!) and the mid bass rise a characteristic I believe, of the box/driver interaction and the 'LS5/9 concept' design

View attachment 183688

I'm not entirely convinced that the approximately 1-dB scoop between 1.5kHz and 5.0kHz is "intended". Wouldn't it be more likely to be an artifact of the use of an 8-inch woofer/1-inch tweeter combination? There is going to be a quite large driver directivity mismatch through the crossover region, albeit with the use of higher-order acoustic filtered responses in this loudspeaker system. This directivity mismatch would show up as a drop in energy in that region when the set of on-axis and off-axis pink noise measurements is averaged together, as was done to produce the above plot. That directivity behaviour is evident in the Klippel NFS measurements of the Harbeth Monitor 30 25th Anniversary speaker,

In a typical relatively-lively domestic listening room, the 1-dB scoop might be expected to produce a somewhat more distant perspective on recordings. This would be especially so when compared to other speakers with a more peaky on-axis response.

 

[DSJR]

Taken to excess, 'distant' in one room can become downright dull in other rooms (like mine), but it's easy to blame the room here as most are pretty dire - why we have such a choice in speaker models with different dispersion characteristics I feel. I'd respectfully suggest that 'dip/scoop' is more like 2dB myself, but I suppose it depends where you put the 'zero line'

What's more important to me now is, how much better or worse 'sounding in room' is a smaller pair of Neumann or Genelec monitors at around a quarter of the Harbeth price?