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Harbeth coming out with a “digital” speaker

FrankW

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Alan has hearing attuned to driver blending and he seems to have done this very well over the decades.
Cool. Is that what this is?
frequency_456075.gif

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/harbeth_30_domestic/
 

Willem

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Without a proper legenda this is cheating: it is the off axis response of a discontinued model from ages ago.
 

FrankW

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The entire suite of measurements is linked above, as is proper etiquette. By all means link the hearing attuned to driver blending off axis of a newer/current model.
 

Willem

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The entire suite of measurements is linked above, as is proper etiquette. By all means link the hearing attuned to driver blending off axis of a newer/current model.
Sorry you posted a graph that is not what it seems at first sight, even if the truth is hidden in the footnote. If my students did this I would fail them.
 

kemmler3D

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Sorry you posted a graph that is not what it seems at first sight, even if the truth is hidden in the footnote. If my students did this I would fail them.
Hmm, no points for formalism from me...

The graph he posted shows the off-axis which more clearly shows the directivity error around the crossover. Which is probably the most relevant rebuttal to the idea that the person in question has some special skill in driver blending / matching. He crossed the woofer too high, it looks like.

The on-axis looks decent but I would expect an EIR to look a little ugly on this one.
 

Phorize

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The graph he posted shows the off-axis which more clearly shows the directivity error around the crossover.

Of a 14 year old speaker. Granted it’s a mess.
 

kemmler3D

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Of a 14 year old speaker. Granted it’s a mess.
No, that's a really fair point. Klippel scanners weren't a thing back then, and he did get the on-axis reasonably flat. On the other hand, they were pretty well aware of dispersion being important even decades before that, so maybe we convict for manslaughter instead of murder on this one. :D
 

voodooless

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No, that's a really fair point. Klippel scanners weren't a thing back then, and he did get the on-axis reasonably flat. On the other hand, they were pretty well aware of dispersion being important even decades before that, so maybe we convict for manslaughter instead of murder on this one. :D
Yeah, in 2009, nobody could measure a speaker… Not even Genelec :facepalm:
IMG_6085.jpeg

And this is even from a few years before 2009. I bet I can find older example with little more effort.

DIY’ers have been doing it back then and years before. Its really not that hard. You just have to care.
 

DSJR

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It's an updated BBC LS5/9 which is what it was intended to be!!!!! Please read my comments in the review thread.

The BBC designed for themselves and for the editing suites, a flat response wasn't what the engineers needed, so the 5/9 put a scoop in the upper hundred Hertz to aid monitoring comfort - so the story goes. As shown in Amir's measurement, Alan held the tweeter down to smooth the suckout into a downward trend and in direct comparison with its forebears, the 'sound' was similar but far better integrated, the 'cold one-note top' of the original much nicer for music listening.

59_19%20years%20apart-sc.jpg


The BBC then went over to small Dynaudio actives judging by copious pics of their acoustically dire (apparently) new studios and the original M30 could then be updated into something far flatter. I can still hear the mid bass 'bump' as a slight added 'fullness' but this balance is extremely popular with Harbeth people who crave 'warmth' of tone and much discussion of this model on the HUG all but ignores the C7-XD and for myself, I rather prefer the transformed performance of the cheaper (!) and slightly larger C7-XD which isn't wuite so 'full of itself' I found in direct comparison. Below the 30.2 Anniversary model. I don't know how much different the current XD version is, but I suspect it's similar...

M30.2 Anniversary (2).jpg
 
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Tovarich007

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Quite a serious dip at 2 Khz at off axis response, even at +- 45 degrees.
Good performances for on axis FR and low distorsion but a bit flawed on off axis FR.

Probably the consequence of two cumulative factors : a rather large cabinet for a two way without a wave guide around the tweeter, and the traditionnal BBC voicing slightly recessed in the low treble but "lushy" in the midrange.

I like that sound, but it's clearly not the most accurate nor neutral, but for listening it can sound great, especially on acoustic music.
 

DSJR

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Hmm, no points for formalism from me...

The graph he posted shows the off-axis which more clearly shows the directivity error around the crossover. Which is probably the most relevant rebuttal to the idea that the person in question has some special skill in driver blending / matching. He crossed the woofer too high, it looks like.

The on-axis looks decent but I would expect an EIR to look a little ugly on this one.
The recommendation has always been to keep the grilles on and point the speakers towards the listener and place them as free from room boundaries as possible. All Harbeths post the HL III (a Harwood design) do integrate very well *for the listener,* even if dispersion isn't the best. Just follow the instructions, position them accordingly and you're fine as regards perceived sound quality. My SHL5's don't sound horrible off-axis, but as my ears failed I do remember the lack of reflections in the 'presence' range in our acoustically 'dead' room made them sound very dull. The hearing aids fully restored that as well as the hf from the 'Soundbase' used with the TV.

So many more things in reproduction via speakers than the speakers themselves and please don't think or take for granted that one's hearing is great over forty years old, 'cos I can all but guarantee it ain't, even if mine is rather worse than most now than other mid 60 year olds...

I do think here the sinad and klippel worship here can get a little out of hand. I'm certain 'quality of bass' is difficult to measure but can be easier to hear (nobody yet has told me how bass boom can be measured, but it can certainly be heard from an undamped bass cone and from what I've read, it doesn't come up in a response plot!).

I'd add there's a line between forensic analysis of the recorded music mox, as required by recording, mixing (and mastering?) engineers and a relaxing but clear and uncoloured sound at home. Harbeths have nodded to the 1960's BBC legacy while perfecting a range of boxes for mainly latter use and increasingly these days, adjusted the balance of virtues for a newer younger audience. It seems to be working. if of course you don't agree, there are plenty of alternative Klippel lovers' monitors out there and you can save some money too :D
 
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FrankW

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Hmm, no points for formalism from me...

The graph he posted shows the off-axis which more clearly shows the directivity error around the crossover. Which is probably the most relevant rebuttal to the idea that the person in question has some special skill in driver blending / matching. He crossed the woofer too high, it looks like.

The on-axis looks decent but I would expect an EIR to look a little ugly on this one.
Precisely. And it also meets the "decades" criteria
 

FrankW

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Alan has hearing attuned to driver blending and he seems to have done this very well over the decades.
It's an updated BBC LS5/9 which is what ot was intended to be!!!!! Please read my comments in the review thread.

I included your quote with the graph, which refutes your assertion. There is more to "driver blending" than just on axis, anywhere beyond the 70s and especially today.
The rest is irrelevant. Harbeths are Marketing Engineering products. The terrible off axis won't matter to the fan club
 

FrankW

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I do think here the sinad and klippel worship here can get a little out of hand. If of course you don't agree, there are plenty of alternative Klippel lovers' monitors out there and you can save some money too :D
There are also a lot anti-science folks who reject controlled listening aka blind perceptual testing, which shows "klippel worship" speakers beating marketing engineering Harbeth types, much to the dismay of the fan club. These are the exact same Krugers who parrot "Trust your ears", with zero cognizance that is, by definition, a blind listening test.
 

FrankW

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I like that sound, but it's clearly not the most accurate nor neutral, but for listening it can sound great, especially on acoustic music.
I have zero issue with subjective preferences. They are just that. False objective claims however...
 
OP
ahofer

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I think we've drifted a bit OT, and way too far into needless internet aggression. As the OP may I request a pause?
 

FrankW

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Well, the reaction of the sheep to a "digital" Harbeth shall be interesting, to say the least. Heaven forbid it uses "digital" amplifiers aka Class "D" :)
 
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ahofer

ahofer

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Well, the reaction of the sheep to a "digital" Harbeth shall be interesting, to say the least. Heaven forbid it uses "digital" amplifiers aka Class "D" :)
Dude, I am a 'sheep' (by your description anyway), and I use class D amps and DSP with my Harbeths (SHL5+) now. I also own a pair of Revel 228be. The Revels are much more placement-flexible. But in the sweet spot I'm surprised how close they sound. Mine certainly have a sound power anomaly (in the presence range, interestingly), but, as I say, they hold up pretty well. I can't hear above 14k, so the high end anomalies are probably unknown to me. Anyway, I don't understand why any of this is worth insults and getting worked up about.

615HLS5fig5.jpg
 
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