Gustard X18 Review (Stereo DAC)

[Χ Ξ Σ]

He is wrong about that... The manufacturer clearly stated that this is not the case for all sold ones. Only the prototype measured by Wolf had this and was corrected. What more can be said about this ?

That's right. I looked at the date and assumed that Shenzhenaudio already had them in stock and started shipping. Turns out it was just pre-order.

 

[julian_hughes]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Gustard X18 Balanced USB DAC with Bluetooth. It was sent to me by their seller, Shenzhenaudio and costs US $749.
......

I got the same remote wth a $40 android TV box. If I'd spent $749 and got that same remote I'd be feeling quite disappointed. These are not very good remotes btw.

 

[RichB]

Great DAC with remote, but once again, no trigger out
Even a 5 volt USB can be used with a USB to trigger cable for most amps these days.

- Rich

 

[CedarX]

Any reason why Sinad is lower at 3V output than say 2.5V?

 

[xema]

Buyer beware: Update your X18 with the latest firmware. If Gustard hasn't released anything, ask them for it.

@WolfX-700 measured this DAC a few days ago. https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/gustard-dac-x18/
While most of the usual tests yielded great results, the multitone test results saw significantly higher distortions than the SINAD number suggested, and they varied quite a bit depending on the different types of filter selected, including the default filter.

After this bug was communicated, Gustard quickly sent L7audiolab a different unit with updated firmware. The buggy multitone results were visible when the DAC was fed 0dBFS signal; therefore, Gustard decided to simply lower the level of the output voltage when the buggy filters were selected to prevent the signal every reaching 0dBFS. However, the non-buggy filters still gave the full voltage.

As a result, changing the filters literally changes the voltage by around 0.2Vrms, which could be audible. I found the way of fixing this bug kinda funny. Before the fix, you might not detect the distortions rising to -80dB. After the fix, you might actually detect the lower volume when switching to a different filter.

The fix and the new firmware were developed 3 days ago. Shenzhenaudio started selling the X18 DAC 7 days ago. This means all the units in stock still have the bug, including the one that Amir received. I am not sure how Gustard will handle this update. I suppose they could release a new firmware that customers can download and install on their own, but if that was the case, why did they have to physically send L7audiolab a different unit with the new firmware? Anyway, I hope Gustard will fix this bug for every customer and not just for a technical reviewer with an APx555B analyzer.

EDIT: Gustard replied very promptly later in this thread. All the units will have the latest firmware. You can buy the X18 with confidence!

this bug is no big deal. it caused by the minor clip of some DF's ripple, and it only happens when signals stay at 0dbfs, real musics are very not likely to trigger this bug.

 

[Ra1zel]

It only took what? 3 years or more for that to happen?

--------------------------------------------------------------

As for this DAC, this is the best THD vs FR ratio I've seen I think. It actually begins to to slope downward as frequency climbs, never seen that before.

I think Okto takes that trophy home

Okto:

Gustard:

 

[xema]

Any reason why Sinad is lower at 3V output than say 2.5V?View attachment 172294

this is AP555's characteristics. the 0dbfs of its ADC is segmently variable.

 

[kiyu]

@gustard I might get this one and I need a headphone amplifier, should I wait a bit longer or is there no plan for a new model? if you can answer just give a hint or something lol
Thanks!

 

[nagster]

Buyer beware: Update your X18 with the latest firmware. If Gustard hasn't released anything, ask them for it.

@WolfX-700 measured this DAC a few days ago. https://www.l7audiolab.com/f/gustard-dac-x18/
While most of the usual tests yielded great results, the multitone test results saw significantly higher distortions than the SINAD number suggested, and they varied quite a bit depending on the different types of filter selected, including the default filter.

After this bug was communicated, Gustard quickly sent L7audiolab a different unit with updated firmware. The buggy multitone results were visible when the DAC was fed 0dBFS signal; therefore, Gustard decided to simply lower the level of the output voltage when the buggy filters were selected to prevent the signal every reaching 0dBFS. However, the non-buggy filters still gave the full voltage.

As a result, changing the filters literally changes the voltage by around 0.2Vrms, which could be audible. I found the way of fixing this bug kinda funny. Before the fix, you might not detect the distortions rising to -80dB. After the fix, you might actually detect the lower volume when switching to a different filter.

The fix and the new firmware were developed 3 days ago. Shenzhenaudio started selling the X18 DAC 7 days ago. This means all the units in stock still have the bug, including the one that Amir received. I am not sure how Gustard will handle this update. I suppose they could release a new firmware that customers can download and install on their own, but if that was the case, why did they have to physically send L7audiolab a different unit with the new firmware? Anyway, I hope Gustard will fix this bug for every customer and not just for a technical reviewer with an APx555B analyzer.

EDIT: Gustard replied very promptly later in this thread. All the units will have the latest firmware. You can buy the X18 with confidence!

Shenzhen Audio only accepted pre-orders before, all the X18 you can get were updated with new firmware, don't worry about this issue.

X18 is a strong candidate for me. But there are some concerns.

About terrible multitone
In summary, L7audiolab wrote, "I measured a commercial product that my friend bought."
In summary, Gustard wrote, "There is no problem with commercial products."
Either one is untrue.

For the second X18, L7audiolab received it from Gustard.
The output amplitude has dropped. It was also changed to a different output amplitude depending on the filter.
Certainly multitone is within acceptable limits.
Exaggeratedly, I felt deceived as a result of their top priority on time and effort.

The X18 itself is promising, but what makes it hesitant to buy is the suspicious reaction and behavior of Gustard.

 

[nagster]

Any reason why Sinad is lower at 3V output than say 2.5V?View attachment 172294

One of the AP range switching is done around 2.5V.

 

[HiFidFan]

As is the case for every consumer product ever, especially within technology and as things have increased in complexity. Regardless of how extensive your internal and possibly even external testing is, it is always going to be orders of magnitude smaller than the amount of consumers that test it in the real world.

Sure, sort of. I mean, this isn't an iPhone, it's a DAC, a solved problem. What new whiz bang features are so complex that it takes what amounts to a Beta release to iron out the issues. Not that there are any with the X18. But reading about past releases (not only from Gustard) and the 'growing pains" associated, kind of boggles the mind (my mind, at least).

I also get the business model of releasing "new & improved" models every few months to generate sales and stay ahead in the SINAD war. But then I look at companies like Benchmark, ADI, Schiit, etc. that have much longer gaps between releases and relatively stable platforms.

 

[nagster]

You can get a better SINAD by setting volume to -2 dB on the machine's panel instead of your instrument. We integrated an analog attenuator which has better performance.

This performance with output with analog attenuator! Moreover, it can be remotely controlled and US$749. Very interesting.
Is it a motor drive POT?
Relay cluster?
Volume IC?

 

[Sonic-Wall]

While the X18 measures great, does it sound great too?

 

[Billy Budapest]

But if you gear ends up with only 125dB SINAD instead of 124.5dB it will most likely drop out from the Top 10 in the ASR guidance and treated like "garbage" by the audience. No matter human beings can hear only 120dB, if any.

I don’t think anyone is treating any DACs that are not in the top 10% of Amir’s SINAD rankings as “garbage.” I think everyone knows that harmonic distortion and noise reached the point of inaudibility a while ago. What most differentiates the DACs at this level are features and cosmetics. Buy whichever one suits you best and you won’t hear a difference between the units.

 

[Billy Budapest]

While the X18 measures great, does it sound great too?

All of these DACs should sound the same unless there is something dramatically wrong with a particular unit.

 

[nagster]

Why does the coax and toslink input of X18 have some jitter, while X16 does not?
View attachment 172250

It is possible that you have traded compatibility with TVs, recorders, etc., and the jitter attenuation capability of digital inputs.
AK was selling an excellent DIR...

 

[TK750]

Sure, sort of. I mean, this isn't an iPhone, it's a DAC, a solved problem. What new whiz bang features are so complex that it takes what amounts to a Beta release to iron out the issues. Not that there are any with the X18. But reading about past releases (not only from Gustard) and the 'growing pains" associated, kind of boggles the mind (my mind, at least).

I also get the business model of releasing "new & improved" models every few months to generate sales. But then I look at companies like Benchmark, ADI, Schiit, etc. that have much longer gaps between releases and relatively stable platforms.

Sure I wasn't really comparing the two, more so just making a general statement which I probably should have made clearer. All I know is that software/firmware is complicated and bugs are common and can be difficult to spot without substantial testing!

I don't know, I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable enough to comment on the complexity. I feel it's quite easy for us to point to the number of excellent measuring and relatively cheap dacs and say it's a solved problem, but there still seem to be so many people getting it wrong! Or perhaps not quite as right!

I suppose it is nice to have options though: the fast moving, top of the measurements and often much cheaper Chinese manufacturers vs the often slower moving, usually not quite as stellar measuring, possibly more stable but also more expensive western brands (big generalisation here obviously).

Another thing to consider is do we know those are more stable? I don't know how the sales numbers compare for example but I wouldn't be surprised if the western manufacturers sell less. Also I don't know if more Chinese products are reviewed here than western ones and perhaps that accounts for greater reporting. I would imagine as a result of topping the measurement tables and also often being cheaper a lot more people from here purchase the Chinese products, and therefore this perhaps contributes to greater reporting and the perceived increase in instability.

(Please don't mistake me for trying to make some kind of east v west thing btw, it was just the easiest way to categorise things)

 

[HiFidFan]

Sure I wasn't really comparing the two, more so just making a general statement which I probably should have made clearer. All I know is that software/firmware is complicated and bugs are common and can be difficult to spot without substantial testing!

I don't know, I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable enough to comment on the complexity. I feel it's quite easy for us to point to the number of excellent measuring and relatively cheap dacs and say it's a solved problem, but there still seem to be so many people getting it wrong! Or perhaps not quite as right!

I suppose it is nice to have options though: the fast moving, top of the measurements and often much cheaper Chinese manufacturers vs the often slower moving, usually not quite as stellar measuring, possibly more stable but also more expensive western brands (big generalisation here obviously).

Another thing to consider is do we know those are more stable? I don't know how the sales numbers compare for example but I wouldn't be surprised if the western manufacturers sell less. Also I don't know if more Chinese products are reviewed here than western ones and perhaps that accounts for greater reporting. I would imagine as a result of topping the measurement tables and also often being cheaper a lot more people from here purchase the Chinese products, and therefore this perhaps contributes to greater reporting and the perceived increase in instability.

(Please don't mistake me for trying to make some kind of east v west thing btw, it was just the easiest way to categorise things)

Yes, my comments were not meant as an East vs. West "thing" either. I was just listing some co.'s off the top of my head.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I suppose it is nice to have options though: the fast moving, top of the measurements and often much cheaper Chinese manufacturers vs the often slower moving, usually not quite as stellar measuring, possibly more stable but also more expensive western brands (big generalisation here obviously).

Another thing to consider is do we know those are more stable? I don't know how the sales numbers compare for example but I wouldn't be surprised if the western manufacturers sell less. Also I don't know if more Chinese products are reviewed here than western ones and perhaps that accounts for greater reporting. I would imagine as a result of topping the measurement tables and also often being cheaper a lot more people from here purchase the Chinese products, and therefore this perhaps contributes to greater reporting and the perceived increase in instability.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by “stability,” but if you mean longevity of the company (ie, will they be around next year or are they a just a flash in the pan), Topping has been in existence for quite a while. I remember Parts Express selling Topping amps based on the Tripath chips when they were all the rage 10-15 years ago.

 

[m8o]

Shenzhen Audio only accepted pre-orders before, all the X18 you can get were updated with new firmware, don't worry about this issue.

Is this the same case with the X16? I was a pre-order, early shipment. Were they all shipped out with whatever bug existed corrected? I only read there was an issue in this thread and am concerned.