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Gustard X16 Balanced MQA DAC Review

Frio

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X16 has no clock input interface. X26pro has a clock interface (can be connected to C16 or C16)
So why do we need that i2s port? I mean I could connect a streaming dongle if it was real hdmi but so it becomes pretty useless.
 

Veri

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So why do we need that i2s port? I mean I could connect a streaming dongle if it was real hdmi but so it becomes pretty useless.
It can work with an HDMI audio extractor (useful), or a digital transport like matrix x-spdif, singxer su, ... (not really useful at all..)
Some audiophiles believe they need I2S, so it is offered. That's really all there is it to it. Imo USB is best pretty much always.
 

Frio

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Yeah that would be my workaround, maybe they can reach out to more people
with hdmi than i2s, just as a thought.
 

abdo123

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It can work with an HDMI audio extractor (useful),

Huh? the extractors people find online never has I2S out.

So why do we need that i2s port? I mean I could connect a streaming dongle if it was real hdmi but so it becomes pretty useless.

I2S allows you to provide the signal and clock to the DAC separately, it has uses. just not for the typical everyday consumer.
 

Frio

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the extractors people find online never has I2S out.
I think he ment you extract the signal and plug it in via other input ports rca for example.

Yes it may have so e inputs but the standard is not very defined and you don't know what works. The use for hdmi is much bigger and could feed the need of much bigger audience. Also it it be a stand out feature.
 

abdo123

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Also it it be a stand out feature.

the thing is with HDMI is that the video signal is always coupled to the audio signal. That's why it's an AVR thing, where you have a big machine and the space on the board that you can use to build the necessary circuits to decouple the signals. Furthermore, with AVRs there is an advantage to using HDMI as it is the only (widespread) format that allows multichannel audio, so an AVR cannot work without HDMI input.
 

gustard

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So why do we need that i2s port? I mean I could connect a streaming dongle if it was real hdmi but so it becomes pretty useless.

This is the IIS interface, not HDMI. The two are different.
IIS is a popular interface in recent years, which can be connected to digital players or USB DDC.
 

frankh

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1. In the core processor of USB audio (we use XU216), there is an area responsible for volume. We can call it "hardware volume".

In Windows, the normal operation (for example: click the small speaker on the taskbar to adjust) is actually the "software volume" of windows. If you want to control the "hardware volume" in windows, you need to open the driver's control panel (such as our GUSTARD USB AUDIO DEVICE CONTROL PANEL). The control panel has a VOLUME tab (whether or not this tab appears depends on the kernel design)

In the MAC system, the volume operation in the system directly calls the "hardware volume", and the mac tries to avoid software volume due to sound quality considerations.

2. In the design of X16's current USB AUDIO kernel, "hardware volume" has been blocked. Based on the analog volume that we have always advocated is better than digital volume. Making the "hardware volume" pass through is the concept of pursuing the best sound quality.

3. Based on the principles of DOP DSD and MQA ease of use. If there are multiple digital volume adjustable nodes in the system, this makes the playback of DOP DSD and MQA prone to trouble. Because if the customer accidentally uses the digital volume in any link before the data stream into DAC, whether it is "software volume" or "hardware volume", it will cause the DOP DSD and MQA to not be played back normally. Therefore, reducing the volume node is our choice.

4. Adjust the volume to preserve the sound quality in order: analog volume (pre-stage or combined amplifier)>decoder volume>computer volume.
Dear Gustard, I'm very happy with the audio quality of the X16 but please don't give us your lame excuses. Why is it that I can control the X16 volume via my keyboard on Windows 10 but I can't do the same on my Mac Mini M1 and MacBook Pro with X16??? Are you telling us that connecting the X16 to Windows 10 produce inferior sound quality by enabling the keyboad volume control on Windows 10??? Obviously not true right!

If you have to develop a driver for Mac OS to enable volume control then do it and stop giving us lame excuses! If it's so difficult then please explain to us why Topping and other companies can do it for their DACs and why can't you do it for the X16???
 

Dannemand

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It refers to the volume of the USB volume control signal before entering the dac, not the volume of the dac.
The DAC volume adjustment will not be affected and can be adjusted through the panel dial or remote control.

I see. So it's merely software volume implemented in the XU216 instead of on the computer (Windows/Mac). But it doesn't adjust the "actual" hardware volume (which would be in the DAC chip or the output stage; You said earlier it was in the DAC chip).

Thank you for that clarification!
 

lizhuoyin

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Dear Gustard, I'm very happy with the audio quality of the X16 but please don't give us your lame excuses. Why is it that I can control the X16 volume via my keyboard on Windows 10 but I can't do the same on my Mac Mini M1 and MacBook Pro with X16??? Are you telling us that connecting the X16 to Windows 10 produce inferior sound quality by enabling the keyboad volume control on Windows 10??? Obviously not true right!

If you have to develop a driver for Mac OS to enable volume control then do it and stop giving us lame excuses! If it's so difficult then please explain to us why Topping and other companies can do it for their DACs and why can't you do it for the X16???
Don't call them lame excuses if you don't understand. Implementation decisions were made by makers based on given parts and drivers. I appreciate that gustard even giving explanations here.
In your logic, you can blame Apple not implementing software volume control as Windows did.
 

Dannemand

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Dear Gustard, I'm very happy with the audio quality of the X16 but please don't give us your lame excuses. Why is it that I can control the X16 volume via my keyboard on Windows 10 but I can't do the same on my Mac Mini M1 and MacBook Pro with X16??? Are you telling us that connecting the X16 to Windows 10 produce inferior sound quality by enabling the keyboad volume control on Windows 10??? Obviously not true right!

If you have to develop a driver for Mac OS to enable volume control then do it and stop giving us lame excuses! If it's so difficult then please explain to us why Topping and other companies can do it for their DACs and why can't you do it for the X16???

It's not a lame excuse, but rather exactly what I responded to you after your original post and now confirmed by Gustard: When you adjust volume on your PC keyboard, Windows simply adjusts the amplitude in the stream (software volume control) which loses resolution and sound quality and breaks MQA and DoP.

The Macs are smarter: They understand not to damage the audio stream, and instead they use USB hardware volume. BUT as it turns out, that is implemented in the XMOS chip which merely performs the same software volume control before passing the stream to the DAC, so it too loses resolution (although it possibly preserves MQA).

Therefore Gustard disabled USB "hardware volume", since it is actually just another software volume in disguise.

If you use Asio on Windows you will see the same as on Mac: No actual volume change, because Asio is smart enough to know not to damage the stream.
 
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Veri

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Dear Gustard, I'm very happy with the audio quality of the X16 but please don't give us your lame excuses. Why is it that I can control the X16 volume via my keyboard on Windows 10 but I can't do the same on my Mac Mini M1 and MacBook Pro with X16??? Are you telling us that connecting the X16 to Windows 10 produce inferior sound quality by enabling the keyboad volume control on Windows 10??? Obviously not true right!

If you have to develop a driver for Mac OS to enable volume control then do it and stop giving us lame excuses! If it's so difficult then please explain to us why Topping and other companies can do it for their DACs and why can't you do it for the X16???
If you want a cheap work-around. Buy a Topping D10s, plug coaxical or optical into X16. Then you get your desired volume control.
This is not the first DAC where I have zero volume control on OSX btw. It has to do with decisions in the design/firmware, I believe..
But considering Windows always has it, and OSX does not, you can indeed partly blame OSX ;)
 

Dannemand

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Looks like a known issue/limitation for mqa application: see Topping D90 MQA

Thank you for the link. As suspected, it's only an "MQA issue" because MQA exposes the fact that USB "hardware volume" doesn't actually adjust volume in the DAC or the output stage, but simply performs software volume by the XMOS controller. On non-MQA Topping D90 nobody noticed that, and they thought they were getting "true hardware volume" (i.e. not performed on the source stream). On MQA models the display shows that MQA is broken, and so it reveals it.

On DACs where XU216 performs the full MQA unfold (such as my A18 or D90) it could in theory perform the volume adjustment after the unfold, but I guess MQA integrity would still be broken which might affect the MQA filter processing. This bit I don't know for sure. But the rest is clear now.
 
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Dannemand

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Yes but coax and optical will only have a rendering of an mqa signal.

You could have Tidal perform the first unfold, but you would lose the second unfold and rendering if you perform software volume on that unfolded stream.

MQA and software volume are simply not compatible.

@Veri's solution is a clever one, and the closest you'll get.
 

Atanasi

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Windows checks if the USB audio device supports USB mixer volume. If it is supported, the Windows volume maps to the USB volume. If not supported, Windows adds an APO for software volume control.
Software volume as an APO matters if programs use ASIO or WASAPI exclusive, because they bypass APOs. One can check if USB volume is supported by playing something with either of these and changing the Windows volume.
I have a Topping E30 with a similar Thesycon driver as X16. It has a volume controller at its settings utility, and this volume control is exactly the same as the Windows mixer volume, except that the Topping settings utility uses dB, while the stock Windows application uses a numerical scale. If E30 is in pure DAC mode, USB volume affects PCM playback. DSD streams are detected and are not affected by USB volume.
 
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