Ironically, you’re doing the exact opposite
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Gustard R30 Review
- Thread starter James. B. Lansing
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IronPyrite
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How so? Myself and others have set aside bias and actually listened to R2R DACs with NOS enabled, and did just that - experienced the sound for themselves before passing judgement, with "hmm, that's counterintuitively and unexpectedly good." Meanwhile, you've provided a graph as a your touché moment. How many graphs do you have in your music library? Unless you can tell me you've loosened the grip on your armchair, listened to NOS-enabled, and can say "been there, done that, NOS sucked," you might be the one "doing the exact opposite." Your face-palm emoji has the self-awareness of a chatbot arguing with itself.Ironically, you’re doing the exact opposite
You did not do that whatsoever.
You cannot set aside biases. It’s impossible because you’re human. You can only try to mask them by taking measures to make sure that you limit the influence your biases to a bare minimum. In this case you can do this with a double blind, level matched test.
IronPyrite
Member
I have a delta sigma Gustard X26, R26 (R2R), and R30 (R2R) sitting on my desk, and have spent more OCD time than I'd care to admit comparing them, the latter 2 in NOS enabled vs. disabled mode. But sure, voodoo, tell me my own personal tests are an exercise in nihilism, single-human tests are impossible due to bias, and that A/B testing is required to make all subjective decisions in life. I'm in this hobby because I enjoy music, not as a torture trial to invite friends over for A/B testing every time there's a decision around what equipment stays, and what equipment goes.
If the differences are so close as to require A/B testing, I'm going with "it does not matter," but NOS isn't one of them - the difference is very noticeable. On one hand, you point to a graph and say (paraphrasing) "look at how bad this measures," and then tell me (again, paraphrasing) "its not possible to hear the difference without A/B, don't pay any attention to the afore mentioned large objective measurement differences, which are meaningless compared to A/B." Its almost as if you're telling that measurements are the real nihilism here, and that A/B is the only true source of objectivity.
If you can’t see how that doesn’t matter, you don’t understand how biases work.
IronPyrite
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I understand how biases work, you're making the assumption that bias is the primary factor for everyone in making decisions, having preference, and forming opinions. While I can't speak for you, your lived experience, your predisposition to following others off a cliff, bias affects everyone differently. Right now you may be thinking "the person who dismisses bias the most, is the most subject to it!" as some form of Dunning-Kruger prediction. If you're the type of person who runs out and buys every product advertised on TV more than 3 times a day, then no judgment, but not everyone behaves this way.
I don't have some supervillain backstory (bias) against enabling super sampling, I prefer the sound of NOS enabled, its as noticeable as tasting chocolate vs vanilla, its an observation, its a preference, not all observation and preference are the predestined result of bias.
Grotti
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Sighted bias is so strong that your brain tricks you in hearing things, that are actually not there. I remember from my time working in a hifi store, that a customer entered my showroom, who was interested in a pair of Klipsch RF-82 (this speaker was hyped at that time with a lot of reviews in the usual magazines). He knew exactly what he was going to hear from the speakers as if he learned the reviews by heart. I confirmed his bias (of course I did: I wanted to sell the speakers) and we listened to a variety of songs. I chose songs with dynamics and with real bass extension to show him the strength of the speakers. He was very enthusiastic, bought a pair and left. As I was rearranging the showroom shortly afterwards I discovered, that we actually had listened to a pair of Focal speakers standing close to the Klipsch. Both of us were absolutely sure, that we had listened to the Klipsch and it's "legendary" strengths, which is by any means a totally different sounding speaker than a Focal with Be tweeter, which can easily be confirmed by measurements.
I am sure that you hear differences and prefer the sound of an R2R DAC in NOS mode. Now eliminate your bias, do a proper blind test and see what's left from the perceived difference or your preference.
I am sure that you hear differences and prefer the sound of an R2R DAC in NOS mode. Now eliminate your bias, do a proper blind test and see what's left from the perceived difference or your preference.
IronPyrite
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So what you're telling me is you accidentally demo'd a much more expensive and refined pair of Focal speakers, your customer was enthused by the sound of the Focal's sound, and you then sold him a pair of Klipsch speakers because he thought he was buying the sound of the Focal speakers? Focal's beryllium line start at over $10 a pair, and Klipsch's top out at, what, $2K a pair? They're not even in the same league. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but I'm not sure I'd be repeating your accidental "bait and switch" here. I hope you attempted to contact the customer afterwards.
Are you? Because if you weren't, you'd proceed with a gatekeeping condition. Oh wait...
At some point in your life, you likely tasted both chocolate and vanilla ice creams and formed an opinion. Did you ask for a blind taste test? If not, how could you be sure? Could it be the difference is far enough apart that tasting in succession is enough to make up your mind? Comparing both NOS enabled vs. disabled is a simple flip of a setting, as you may have guessed, I've compared the 2 settings across multiple music genre's. The difference between NOS settings notable, we're not talking interconnect comparisons here. If the bar is inviting someone over to flip the switch and submitting my A/B responses to a notary republic in order to satisfy yours and others skepticism, then be prepared to go unsatisfied. I leave scientific A/B listening comparisons to you, as the saying goes, "go west young man."
In audio electronics, it very much is.
Nope, I’m merely acknowledging the fact that you are human, as we all are.
A preference is fine, and I even think that a NOS DAC can sound different from a proper one simply because of the frequency response droop. You may prefer that for sure. But is it because you actually prefer the sound, or because you drank the NOS kool aid? For sure you didn’t buy this product without any expectations.
But in any case, NOS is not more pure, or more analog. Objectively it cannot reproduce the signal faithfully so the fidelity is just low. If a DAC sounds different, it’s just broken even if you like how it sounds.
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Svend P
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Now that you have started to lash out, I think you are ripe for this:
Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...
Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Grotti
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Thank you for your advice. I read it as "use the ignore button"......done.
IronPyrite
Member
Not a lash out, my friend. But since you bring it up, saying "I'm sure you hear..." and then following up with "but now you need to jump through this hoop I set before you to prove its actually not your imagination" retroactively makes the first statement sound a bit condescending, no? I'm fine with Grotti speaking his mind though, I'd rather people were open and honest, and challenging someone on something doesn't constitute disrespect.Now that you have started to lash out, I think you are ripe for this:
Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...
Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...
I use the example of chocolate vs. vanilla, because most of us don't need to A/B compare which you prefer. So too it is with NOS. I think people here are skeptical of the the level of difference NOS makes, like we're comparing interconnects, where I too would be suggesting do an A/B test before saying you prefer that carbon fiber cladded $3K cable over a $100 cable from Amazon. Folks are pointing out the distortion NOS adds on paper, while simultaneously saying "all DACs sound the same" - they can't both be true.
Svend P
Addicted to Fun and Learning
OR red wine vs white?
The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts Across the Globe
A LITTLE OVER a dozen years ago,
IronPyrite
Member
Do you disagree that chocolate and vanilla don't need A/B to tell the difference? If not, the article is a strawman argument, and probably more applicable to someone debating the merits of $3K interconnects, where placebo bias really is a factor.OR red wine vs white?
The Legendary Study That Embarrassed Wine Experts Across the Globe
A LITTLE OVER a dozen years ago,www.realclearscience.com
IronPyrite
Member
There's no replacement for listening tests. Its amazing how strong the opinions are on this thread, from people who don't even own (let alone handled) the product being discussed.
The customer you previously mentioned would have probably been better off sticking to the theoretical specs, frequency charts, and what he read on forums, maybe that was your point and advice all along. When he did his due diligence to make an informed purchasing decision, and demo a $2K set of Klipsch speakers in person, he was provided a demo of a set of $10K+ Focal speakers instead, and probably thought he was getting a real bargain when he walked out the door with the $2K set of Klipsch speakers. He should have known that listening demos were not to be trusted, and that seeking out measurement tests and advice from non-owners found here was the way.
If you enjoy the sound of your NOS dac that is completely fine after all you have to listen to it.
But you should be aware that NOS is not ‘better’ by any metric, it is just your preference.
Keith
But you should be aware that NOS is not ‘better’ by any metric, it is just your preference.
Keith
Svend P
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I have not seen any blind tests were people were able to tell DAC's apart.
How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?
I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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IronPyrite
Member
I'm 100% with you that NOS should not sound better by any objective measurement criteria. As the saying goes: "In theory, reality and theory are the same; in reality, they rarely are." All I ask is that folks who haven't listened to NOS in person gauge the strength of their opinions based on this, and would humbly suggest to anyone who has a DAC with the NOS setting to give it an open-minded try.
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IronPyrite
Member
I've never met a person from Tibet, but that doesn't prove Tibet doesn't exist. One might say its convenient for someone to not be able to cite an example that disproves their position.I have not seen any blind tests were people were able to tell DAC's apart in blind test.
How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?
I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...
jhwalker very concisely addresses the incorrect premise of that post 2 comments down, followed by 100's of pages of comments of "you can't actually hear those objective, and sometimes measurable, difference in DACs", people saying "I heard it!" and others saying "nuh uh, oh no you didn't!," round and round and round. And did that thread ever devolve into every topic relating to measurable vs. subjective topic under the sun, there'd be less debate about the merits of the Abrahamic religions.
.. your searching for Russel’s teapot ..
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