Gustard DAC-X30

[LucreciaBorgia]

No, they are not measuring the same: Some are measuring worse, but they sound more pleasant because of added distortion...It is the reality of HiFi, where some very expensive gears have not so ideal measurements, but are adding a sound color that is very pleasing
It all depend on what you are looking for: Absolute fidelity or a more pleasing/colored sound

 

[RandomEar]

No, they are not measuring the same: Some are measuring worse, but they sound more pleasant because of added distortion...It is the reality of HiFi, where some very expensive gears have not so ideal measurements, but are adding a sound color that is very pleasing
It all depend on what you are looking for: Absolute fidelity or a more pleasing/colored sound

You need an enormous amount of distortion for it to become audible and therefore relevant for your argument. Try the test yourself. Even pretty mediocre R2R DACs tend to clear -80 dB THD+N, which is equal to or better than what your typical class AB amplifier delivered since the 80s. It's not strictly transparent, but I'm open to solid evidence that people can easily distinguish such devices in a controlled blind test.

People in general failed to do so for amps 40 years ago (p. 78ff) - and those have a much more difficult task to accomplish than DACs due to the large differences in speaker impedance and phase, as well as the orders of magnitude higher output current. This may be a different outcome for tube DACs, which push north of -60 dB or even -45 dB THD. But I don't think anybody here would dispute that you can make any device sound different if you design it to perform bad enough.

It's also been established scientifically that distortion does not make devices sound more pleasant in the majority of cases. It depends on many factors, including the type of distortion and the amount. In general, audible distortion is reported as unpleasant by listeners, but there are specific cases where the opposite is true. A device which adds audible distortion to any audio you listen to is therefore undesirable, since it takes away the option to listen to the undisturbed, clean music which sounds better in most cases. This whole idea that "(slightly) distorted = colored = more pleasing" is simply wrong for the majority of cases.

 

[LucreciaBorgia]

The study you quote exactly prove the contrary:
"This disconnect between measurement and perception has been explored in published research, notably in a study presented in 2012 by Temme, Olive et al. Their work highlights a crucial point: objective distortion metrics don't always align with listener preference or audibility. In some cases, headphones with higher measured distortion were still preferred by listeners, depending on the frequency region and the nature of the distortion."

 

[staticV3]

The study you quote exactly prove the contrary:
"This disconnect between measurement and perception has been explored in published research, notably in a study presented in 2012 by Temme, Olive et al. Their work highlights a crucial point: objective distortion metrics don't always align with listener preference or audibility. In some cases, headphones with higher measured distortion were still preferred by listeners, depending on the frequency region and the nature of the distortion."

Preference for one distortion profile over another, requires said distortion to be perceptible.

Modern DACs and Amps OTOH, have distortion that is orders of magnitude below human hearing thresholds.

 

[RandomEar]

The study you quote exactly prove the contrary:

It doesn't and your quote even clearly says so?!

"This disconnect between measurement and perception has been explored in published research, notably in a study presented in 2012 by Temme, Olive et al. Their work highlights a crucial point: objective distortion metrics don't always align with listener preference or audibility. In some cases, headphones with higher measured distortion were still preferred by listeners, depending on the frequency region and the nature of the distortion."

In simple words:

• THD (as the most common objective metric for distortion) is not the best metric to gauge the audibility of distortion -> This is a well known problem and I didn't say anything about this correlation. THD is easy to measure and usually a known spec, though.
• In some cases, higher distortion can still be preferred -> That precisely means in most cases it isn't. Some -> not most.

EDIT: If you want to know more about metrics which correlate better with perceptible distortion, the field of research is pretty vast. I would recommend the Geddes and Lee papers from 2003 [1, 2] for one interesting metric. The problem with any of these metrics is that they are pretty much never available for a specific device - the best you can hope for is usually THD, IMD and noise or SINAD.

 

[Dibu]

Just because all the DACs on this list have excellent or very good measurements doesn't mean they sound the same. The sound isn't determined by the measurements (not only that), but by the design and components used. A power supply with excellent measurements can sound completely different from another with excellent measurements. The output stages in this DAC aren't all the same, and even if they have excellent measurements, each output stage has its own design. Measurements are important, but not essential.

 

[Dibu]

Just because all the DACs on this list have excellent or very good measurements doesn't mean they sound the same. The sound isn't determined by the measurements (not only that), but by the design and components used. A power supply with excellent measurements can sound completely different from another with excellent measurements. The output stages in this DAC aren't all the same, and even if they have excellent measurements, each output stage has its own design. Measurements are important, but not essential.

 

[Beave]

Just because all the DACs on this list have excellent or very good measurements doesn't mean they sound the same. The sound isn't determined by the measurements (not only that), but by the design and components used. A power supply with excellent measurements can sound completely different from another with excellent measurements. The output stages in this DAC aren't all the same, and even if they have excellent measurements, each output stage has its own design. Measurements are important, but not essential.

Any evidence for these claims? Or is it so just because you feel it is so?

 

[Dibu]

Any evidence for these claims? Or is it so just because you feel it is so?

My ears can clearly hear it. You can already hear the difference between an ES9038 and an AKM4499EX by unplugging one and plugging the other in.

 

[Beave]

My ears can clearly hear it. You can already hear the difference between an ES9038 and an AKM4499EX by unplugging one and plugging the other in.

And did you bother to match levels precisely (to within 0.1dB) and blind yourself from knowing which was which and set it up so that you could switch quickly between the two?

 

[RandomEar]

Just because all the DACs on this list have excellent or very good measurements doesn't mean they sound the same.

Could you provide any evidence for that?

The sound isn't determined by the measurements (not only that), but by the design and components used. A power supply with excellent measurements can sound completely different from another with excellent measurements. The output stages in this DAC aren't all the same, and even if they have excellent measurements, each output stage has its own design.

All that you listed is irrelevant. What matters is what comes out of the device, because what else would we listen to? We do not listen to capacitors, power supplies or cables: We listen to a voltage over time, presented at the DAC output connectors.

Using your logic, we could never measure what we actually listen to because what comes out of the DAC - even if 100% provably identical to another - would somehow not be what actually comes out of it because some fairy dust inside the device somehow actually determined the sound, even though the result on the output would look identical. That just doesn't make any sense, does it?

Measurements are important, but not essential.

Again: By your logic, measurements would be absolutely useless, because they would not correlate with the actual output of the DAC. This idea doesn't make any sense, do you see that?

I'll give you an example using your chain of logic: You've got a house with multiple rooms and tap water outlets. All provide the exact same municipal water through the same type and length of pipe. You collect water samples and have them analyzed: They come back and the results are 100% identical. Because it's the same water. You taste the water in the bathroom and conclude that it tastes like water. You taste the same water in the kitchen and conclude that it tastes like cherry cola. You are absurdly wrong about that but come to an online forum and explain to people how the exact same water which measures identical does not taste the same.

This is where we are now

 

[mocenigo]

I'd argue it's safer driving a supercar on a racetrack than an actual road. They're tested on racetracks. Autobahn is just fairly straight, boring road which is not going to test the handling.

Also in hot weather on the concrete Autobahns the concrete can expand and "blow up" which is very hazardous.

So, a poor analogy imo.

Well, driving on the road can be more exciting.

 

[VientoB]

Well, driving on the road can be more exciting.

Not in a supercar.

 

[mocenigo]

Not in a supercar.

Not even on a German autobahn? Anyway, I never owned a supercar–or any other type of car, actually. When I really must drive, I drive my wife's car.

 

[VientoB]

Not even on a German autobahn? Anyway, I never owned a supercar–or any other type of car, actually. When I really must drive, I drive my wife's car.

Like I said, straight roads. Not very interesting.

 

[Dibu]

All that you listed is irrelevant. What matters is what comes out of the device, because what else would we listen to? We do not listen to capacitors, power supplies or cables: We listen to a voltage over time, presented at the DAC output connectors.

Using your logic, we could never measure what we actually listen to because what comes out of the DAC - even if 100% provably identical to another - would somehow not be what actually comes out of it because some fairy dust inside the device somehow actually determined the sound, even though the result on the output would look identical. That just doesn't make any sense, does it?

No, that's totally wrong. If 1000dacs sounded identical based on their measurements, there would be no competition. A Ferrari and a Porsche might have the same speed, but their engine sounds completely different.

Again: By your logic, measurements would be absolutely useless, because they would not correlate with the actual output of the DAC. This idea doesn't make any sense, do you see that?

I'll give you an example using your chain of logic: You've got a house with multiple rooms and tap water outlets. All provide the exact same municipal water through the same type and length of pipe. You collect water samples and have them analyzed: They come back and the results are 100% identical. Because it's the same water. You taste the water in the bathroom and conclude that it tastes like water. You taste the same water in the kitchen and conclude that it tastes like cherry cola. You are absurdly wrong about that but come to an online forum and explain to people how the exact same water which measures identical does not taste the same.

This is where we are now

What matters in the end is the ear. It's useless for you to give me examples like those of five-year-olds.
The ears say something else, and I listen with my ears, not with an analyzer.
If you're happy "only" with numbers, I hope you collect many of them in your personal book, but know that they won't tell you anything about the sound that reaches our ears.

 

[RandomEar]

No, that's totally wrong. If 1000dacs sounded identical based on their measurements, there would be no competition. A Ferrari and a Porsche might have the same speed, but their engine sounds completely different.

How is this wrong? If two absolutely identical signals leave two different DACs, how do you suppose they could sound different in any way? Do you still not see the problem with your argument? It does not make any sense. You literally need to rely on magic to make your logic work

What matters in the end is the ear. It's useless for you to give me examples like those of five-year-olds.

Well, I tried...

The ears say something else, and I listen with my ears, not with an analyzer.
If you're happy "only" with numbers, I hope you collect many of them in your personal book, but know that they won't tell you anything about the sound that reaches our ears.

Your ears lie to you. Please take look around on ASR. Read an learn. Understand that "hearing" isn't actually directly linked to sound: Hearing is an interpretation of your brain. It is influenced by many things. Identical sounds will not be perceived as identical, depending on a vast number of circumstances including what you see at that moment, your mood or past experiences. Hearing is not a reliable sense at all and rigorous controls are required to get any robust result from listening tests. Those controls include level-matching, blinding and very short switching times between tracks or devices. Unless those controls are put in place, your brain will simply make stuff up and you'll never know and be happy with it. The differences you think you hear between DACs are not real and will dissappear in controlled testing - simple as that.

A couple links for you to learn more:

AES Paper Digest: Sensitivity and Reliability of ABX Blind Testing

This is abbreviated synopsis of the paper, Ten Years of ABX Testing, by David Clark: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5549 ABX testing as you may know is a double blind testing methodology aimed at determining if someone can reliably identify A from B. Both A and B are presented to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Auditory Illusions - How your ears can be fooled | hear.com

Are your ears fooling you? You might be experiencing an auditory illusion. Learn about the McGurk Effect, The Shepard Illusion, and the Tritone Paradox.

www.hear.com

Shepard tone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[staticV3]

No, that's totally wrong. If 1000dacs sounded identical based on their measurements, there would be no competition.

And for those that have done blind tests and unmasked the marketing lies for what they are, there indeed is no real competition.

You just choose based on price, warranty, features and the like, because the sound of even budget DACs has leapfrogged the resolving abilities of homo sapiens decades ago.

The only reason why competition persist between boutique brands selling expensive DACs, is because enough customers are still drinking the Kool Aid or are simply buying for bragging rights.

The price tag is the product and the emperor has no clothes.

Nowadays, buying DACs for better sound, is about as useful as donating your money to Elon.

 

[Dibu]

Your ears lie to you. Please take look around on ASR. Read an learn. Understand that "hearing" isn't actually directly linked to sound: Hearing is an interpretation of your brain. It is influenced by many things. Identical sounds will not be perceived as identical, depending on a vast number of circumstances including what you see at that moment, your mood or past experiences. Hearing is not a reliable sense at all and rigorous controls are required to get any robust result from listening tests. Those controls include level-matching, blinding and very short switching times between tracks or devices. Unless those controls are put in place, your brain will simply make stuff up and you'll never know and be happy with it. The differences you think you hear between DACs are not real and will dissappear in controlled testing - simple as that.

A couple links for you to learn more:

AES Paper Digest: Sensitivity and Reliability of ABX Blind Testing

This is abbreviated synopsis of the paper, Ten Years of ABX Testing, by David Clark: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5549 ABX testing as you may know is a double blind testing methodology aimed at determining if someone can reliably identify A from B. Both A and B are presented to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Auditory Illusions - How your ears can be fooled | hear.com

Are your ears fooling you? You might be experiencing an auditory illusion. Learn about the McGurk Effect, The Shepard Illusion, and the Tritone Paradox.

www.hear.com

Shepard tone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These are the legends that have been going on for 20 years. If your hearing isn't reliable, send your woman a bouquet of flowers when she says "fuck you" because that's not what you heard. In reality, she said "I love you." Your statements are really hilarious. You don't realize you're acting like a neurologist instead of listening to music. You're not an expert on the brain, just like the guy in the video isn't. You're not a scholar of the human ear. And I don't think you're a mathematician. Take two identical signals. Place a copper wire on the first and measure it; place a capacitor in series on the other and measure it. I don't think you know what you're talking about. Go back to school, and then when you've learned, come back here and I'll write things that make logical sense. Not the legends about the ear and the brain you read on children's forums.

 

[Dibu]

And for those that have done blind tests and unmasked the marketing lies for what they are, there indeed is no real competition.

You just choose based on price, warranty, features and the like, because the sound of even budget DACs has leapfrogged the resolving abilities of homo sapiens decades ago.

The only reason why competition persist between boutique brands selling expensive DACs, is because enough customers are still drinking the Kool Aid or are simply buying for bragging rights.

The price is the product and the emperor has no clothes.

Buying DACs for better sound, is about as useful as donating your money to Elon.

So, in your opinion, a Chord Hugo 2 sounds the same as a Topping E30? Wait, while I dry my tears from laughing so hard.