GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review

[amirm]

don't get why there is so much excitement about 40k $ loudspeakers that have nothing under 100 Hz or the bass extension of some small 2 way bookshelf speakers.

These speakers cost less and have better frequency response :

thttps://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/

Buchardt A500 Powered Bookshelf Speaker Review

Buchardt A500 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

There is a big difference here. The norm is controlled but narrow directivity. The LS1c produces controlled but wide directivity. Compare the example you cited above:

To LS1c:

LS1c is twice as wide, providing larger sweet spot and spatial qualities of side reflections are allowed.

 

[Sokel]

”3-way woofer settings - Here you can control some parameters of a connected subwoofer. First you can set the gain. If you use the Grimm LS1s subs, the system is linear in the free field (onaxis) with a 0 dB setting. Dependent on your acoustics you may like to use a slightly lower or higher value. Since the crossover frequency is 70 Hz, the gain control acts like a low-shelf EQ below this frequency”.

The 70 Hz crossover point is confirmed by Amirs measurements. The crossover point moving with the subwoofer level is a bit dubious, because the filters cutoff frequencies don’t really change.

I obviously talk about the small change by the curve alone, as we always see when playing with levels up and down.
Nothing drastic, probably a few Hz given the choice of modes we see at SP.

 

[MZKM]

Preference Rating
SCORE: 5.5
SCORE w/sub: 7.3

Frequency response: ±8.0dB 20Hz-20kHz ; ±2.5dB 80Hz-20kHz

​

 

[PristineSound]

Reserved.

Are your sure you don't want to check other options out at $40k?

You have A LOT of other options, especially the pending fully active Ascilab's.

 

[Davey]

but you would agree, statement is quite funny, given modern understanding of acoustics.

Amir could set up his NFS system in any room. Put subwoofer "X" up on the stand and test. The results should be the same in any room.
The room did not modify the measured bass response. Can you grasp that??????

 

[kemmler3D]

Not sure I understand the appeal of the bass rolling off gradually from 100Hz (albeit it almost in linear fashion rather than in an "accelerated" way) when you're talking about a system that includes a sub for a good many thousands of dollars. Maybe the idea is the gradual roll off fits well with room gain so that they're designed to be plonked in a room without thought and still sound about right bass wise. Doesn't sit with me quite right, the horizontal dispersion is amazing though.

KEF does something similar in many of its speakers to account for room gain. A strategic move to maybe help users get reasonably flat bass without EQ.

 

[amirm]

Put subwoofer "X" up on the stand and test. The results should be the same in any room.

What? Room modes most definitely change the response and hence, would be 100% situation dependent.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Great linearity, wide and controlled dispersion and super fast, clean decay. Maybe these things are more important than distortion and bass extension when it comes to subjective impressions?

I interpreted Amir’s subjective impressions as there is something very special about how these sound and I’m not sure that we can easily quantify why. My guess is the wide dispersion (coupled to excellent linearity) and the decay are the main reasons.

 

[Davey]

What? Room modes most definitely change the response and hence, would be 100% situation dependent.

No. Room modes do not change the response of the subwoofer. Only a change in the equalization and/or design could do that.
The NFS takes the "room" out of the equation.
The result is, essentially, anechoic.

And, you left out my first sentence in your quote in the previous reply. That, is a very important part. Your NFS results would be the same.... in any room the NFS was set up in.

Don't quote me out of context please.

 

[Matt_Holland]

No. The NFS takes the "room" out of the equation.
The result is, essentially, anechoic.

I’m confident Amir knows this

 

[bachatero]

That price is just Grimm!

 

[kyuu]

It is always hard to figure out what range to use. But sure, he is 3 dB lower noise floor which now shows a couple of resonances:

View attachment 452328

Wow I didn't even catch this. Why are you using such a radically different range here than with other speakers? Usually the floor on the waterfall in your reviews is at 60dB, but even on this graph, which is lower than the one in the review, it's still at 75dB, I think?

 

[olieb]

My guess is the wide dispersion (coupled to excellent linearity) and the decay are the main reasons.

I agree. The (two) things that are special about these loudspeakers are the very wide and smooth dispersion with near constant (and low) DI from 800-8000Hz and the linearised step response. Everything else is between decent and very good, but not more so than other good designs (for much less money).
And I doubt that the step response can make a big difference (but ...).
In respect of the width I don't think these will be my preference, as a listener of classical/acoustical recorded music I prefer as little listening room characteristics to be present as possible and a wide dispersion with plenty of reflections will not play along here.
EDIT: But if indeed the (near) constant DI with reflections of spectrum very close to the direct sound does the magic, I might have to think about reducing reflections by other means. If only I could find out, but the price of these puts them in shops I do not frequent. Maybe I have to copy them myself

 

[Davey]

To be clear on this point, I spent half a day playing with different bass optimizations in NFS. All other variations I tried, reduced the level of bass so the default was optimal.

FYI company got back to me stating the same point @Davey made earlier in the thread that sub should not be measured anechoically. So no "mistake" but different views on how such speakers should be measured.

It's not a mistake to measure it anechoically. Your test is fine.
BUT, the context of how it's going to be used needs to be known, to make (better) sense of the results.
I hope that's clear.

 

[Cbdb2]

It's not open baffle

At those long wave lenghts the floor is the baffle. I wonder if the horizontal placement changes the way it interacts with this large baffle.

 

[Cbdb2]

The best I can do is to say that voices sounded clean but remote until the was a forte passage when they jumped right at me. I was trying fo find rational explanations and reread the original LS1 whitepaper by Bruno and reviews of the LS1 and LS1be. I had already retired the idea that it was distortion from excitation of the cone modes of the W22EX midbass as I had found distortion mesasuremens of the LS1 and newer versions.

In that large room i wonder if they were pushing them hard enough to bring out the spike in distortion at 700hz that Amirm measured.

 

[WaveCollapser]

Surprising bass performance for 40k with a sub. I'm curious how would the FR look like without subs (26k usd still)

 

[Lorenzo74]

Clearly an excellent product, but there's a lot of strong competition at (and considerably below!) that stratospheric price point, e.g. a Kii Three BXT setup -- with its huge low end capability and highly advanced DSP -- goes for literally many thousands of USD or Euros less: Kii Three BXT with Kii Control

Can you guess who designed both speakers you just mention? Thanks @Bruno putzeys… for the first controlled directivity speakers that change the way we can enjoy music in a room… (and class D as well!)

https://www.grimmaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/einsnull_ls1_review_2011_english.pdf

 

[sceptical1]

Great linearity, wide and controlled dispersion and super fast, clean decay. Maybe these things are more important than distortion and bass extension when it comes to subjective impressions?

I interpreted Amir’s subjective impressions as there is something very special about how these sound and I’m not sure that we can easily quantify why. My guess is the wide dispersion (coupled to excellent linearity) and the decay are the main reasons.

This is an opinion that matters just like Amir's. Do I need to pick apart the objective measurements of the 99% of mediocre speakers tested here or concentrate on a choice between Amir's handful chosen that sound close to reproducing real music. The superior time and phase alignment, low resonance, controlled dispersion, excellent low frequency response (?) and most important active vs. passsive design are easily quantifiable.

Just an observation, if I saw these and not listened I would have assumed based on their design to be the biggest pieces of shit this side of diy danny snake oil. The reciprocal of what is current.

 

[Pearljam5000]

"I always start with female vocals and here, I was hearing an effect I had not experienced before: the vocals would separate out tonally and spatially from the rest of the band in the most delightful way. The halo was quite large around the (single) speaker I was listening to as well, making for a wonderful experience. This was still there somewhat with male vocals but really, there with females. Maybe it is the wide directivity. I am not sure but whatever it was, it put the LS1c+SB1 combo in a class by itself"

What could cause it to happen just with this speaker and not any other speaker you tried?
@amirm