GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review

[markstein]

Keep in mind, the $40k all-in cost includes speaker, amp, DAC and sub.

Yes. Much too expensive, compared to other pro monitors including speaker, amp, DAC and sub. Boutique pricing IMO.

 

[Purité Audio]

When we first bought them over they were £9k a pair inc vat, but that was then and this is …
Keith

 

[markstein]

When we first bought them over they were £9k a pair inc vat, but that was then and this is …
Keith

Yes, this trend can be seen with other brands as well (D&D, Sigberg, GGNTKT...), however, the pricing of Grimm subjectively seems extreme.

 

[a4eaudio]

What does it mean for a price to be extreme?

p* is defined as D(p*) - S(p*) = 0

i.e., equilibrium price is such that Demand equals Supply.

 

[hvbias]

After looking at the Compare page on Spinorama can anyone tell me why they'd pick these over Kii 3 BXT?

edit: or Kef Blade Meta? Adding this as I didn't realize LS1 jumped up to $40k, so might as well add these in as well.

 

[a4eaudio]

After looking at the Compare page on Spinorama can anyone tell me why they'd pick these over Kii 3 BXT?

edit: or Kef Blade Meta? ...

Because they like the look better. Grimm LS1C, Kii 3 BXT, and KEF Blade all look completely different. It just depends on what someone wants in their living room as a show piece.

 

[Blockader]

After looking at the Compare page on Spinorama can anyone tell me why they'd pick these over Kii 3 BXT?

edit: or Kef Blade Meta? Adding this as I didn't realize LS1 jumped up to $40k, so might as well add these in as well.

Totally different speakers. They all measure good but they offer different experiences.

Grimm was designed for maximum envelopment, soundstage width: they maximize the interaction between the speakers and the room which results a high reflected/direct sound ratio. If you listen to music that requires large soundstage to sound immersive, Grimm is one of the best maybe the best speaker in the market for that.

Kii / Blade are narrow directivity speakers for critical listening, potentially better imaging and higher clarity. They are relative to Grimm very little interaction with the room around them which doesn't make them better but different. Kii / Blade can't have as wide soundstage as Grimm does.

 

[MKR]

Totally different speakers. They all measure good but they offer different experiences.

Grimm was designed for maximum envelopment, soundstage width: they maximize the interaction between the speakers and the room which results a high reflected/direct sound ratio. If you listen to music that requires large soundstage to sound immersive, Grimm is one of the best maybe the best speaker in the market for that.

Kii / Blade are narrow directivity speakers for critical listening, potentially better imaging and higher clarity. They are relative to Grimm very little interaction with the room around them which doesn't make them better but different. Kii / Blade can't have as wide soundstage as Grimm does.

Or you have a speaker with variable directivity and that is switchable on the fly (which I just happen to own), best of all worlds

 

[Arindal]

Kii / Blade are narrow directivity speakers for critical listening, potentially better imaging and higher clarity.

Kii is a good example of an even-directivity speaker over a vast frequency range, but I would not call it ´narrow directivity´, rather medium.

Blade, on the other hand, is a strange mixture of a de-facto omnidirectional speaker for the bass and lower mids, narrowing down to pretty narrow dispersion in the brilliance and treble bands, which are lacking off-axis energy. From subjective reverb tonality one of the most uneven speakers I have encountered, so I found imaging and clarity to be significantly deteriorated in comparison with more even speakers like Kii.

The three sound very different, but just regarding reverb tonality, I would say Kii and Grimm are almost siblings, Blade is completely off.

 

[kharan]

Kii Three and Blade 2's directivity pretty much sit on top of each other from 5K onwards, covering the treble and the brilliance region.

Their directivities also sit on top of each other though much of the mids from 400 Hz to 1400 Hz.

The biggest difference is the cardioid pattern narrowing the dispersion of the Kii in the lower mids and upper bass, and the cancellation lobes with the tweeter crossover of the Kii which creates an increased directivity in that 2 kHz region.

If you think constantly increasing directivity sounds bad, that's one thing, but the reverb is one of the most even I've seen, you can practically draw a straight line from 200 Hz onward on top of the early reflection DI and there would be minimum excursion above and below that line.

 

[Arindal]

Kii Three and Blade 2's directivity pretty much sit on top of each other from 5K onwards, covering the treble and the brilliance region.

Not at all. Blade 2´s directivity index is much higher compared to d.i. in the lower mids, more or less continuously increasing, while Kii´s is pretty constant below 1.5K and a bit alternating above, with a notable hump around 2K which is indicative of lobing issues.

When judging directivity, I recommend not to stare at d.i. graphs, but compare octave-broad bands or a bit broader beginning with the fundamental band which is increasingly localizable (300-800Hz), with different reflection windows separated. It is more helpful when trying to roughly predict reverb tonality.

If you think constantly increasing directivity sounds bad, that's one thing,

It is not necessarily sounding bad under any condition, but experience is telling me that this particular pattern in a typical living-room environment with reflective side-walls, reflective ceiling, rear wall nearby, is producing a tremendously colorated reverb reflection and reverb pattern, very lower midrange-heavy, dull, lame, detached from phantom sources, artificial.

but the reverb is one of the most even I've seen, you can practically draw a straight line from 200 Hz onward on top of the early reflection DI and there would be minimum excursion above and below that line.

You mean ´evenly colorated´ or ´continuously decreasing in level´? I see no indication why reverb that shows a decreasing level of harmonics from octave-band to octave-band, should be anyhow desirable. I would rather say it is sufficiently colorated to not being recognized as the same tonal pattern as the direct sound, by our brain.

That said, I am personally not a fan of Grimm or Kii either, but I can't imagine them to sound anyhow similar to the Blade, and under disadvantageous conditions they tend to show some kind of brilliance-rich reverb (3-6K elevated) whenever I heard them.

 

[hvbias]

That said, I am personally not a fan of Grimm or Kii either, but I can't imagine them to sound anyhow similar to the Blade, and under disadvantageous conditions they tend to show some kind of brilliance-rich reverb (3-6K elevated) whenever I heard them.

What would you suggest I add to my audition list?

 

[MattHooper]

After looking at the Compare page on Spinorama can anyone tell me why they'd pick these over Kii 3 BXT?

My totally uninformative answer:

Having heard the Kii Three I wasn’t grabbed by them.

I like to look of the Grimm better… I like the wide baffle thing and how they employed it.

Over the years, I’ve noticed that I tend to really like the sound of loudspeakers using the SEAS drivers. (Grimm).

I tend to like a little sparkle up top and it looks like the Grimm would provide that in terms of its native frequency response.

Plus, I’m irrationally attracted to really clean waterfall plots:

Grimm:

Kii Three:

 

[NTK]

...
Plus, I’m irrationally attracted to really clean waterfall plots:
...

You do notice these differences, don't you?

 

[Bwaslo]

That partly looks like different choice of window edge.

But point taken, "feel" about appearance of waterfalls can be very unreliable and the location of the curve above the floor has way undue influence on perceived transient goodness.

 

[MattHooper]

You do notice these differences, don't you?

View attachment 514547

No, honestly, I suck at noticing things like that on such graphs. That’s why I said irrationally attracted.



So if there’s a difference in scale, correct?
If they were corrected for the same scale, what would we see?

 

[staticV3]

If they were corrected for the same scale, what would we see?

Equally clean waterfalls.

 

[olieb]

Equally clean waterfalls.

Especially as the speakers use the same tweeter, whose behaviour is responsible for the greater part of the graph.

 

[Arindal]

What would you suggest I add to my audition list?

If you want an alternative cardioid concept (similar to Kii Audio), try D&D 8c or MEG R921k. For a broad baffle concept (similar to Grimm in terms of direcitivity), maybe something like Magico A5. And finally a conventional coaxial 3-way concept like Blade, with rather ´warm´ tonality, I would suggest to give TAD CR1TX a try. Completely subjective choices, admittingly.

 

[hvbias]

My totally uninformative answer:

Having heard the Kii Three I wasn’t grabbed by them.

I like to look of the Grimm better… I like the wide baffle thing and how they employed it.

Over the years, I’ve noticed that I tend to really like the sound of loudspeakers using the SEAS drivers. (Grimm).

I tend to like a little sparkle up top and it looks like the Grimm would provide that in terms of its native frequency response.

Plus, I’m irrationally attracted to really clean waterfall plots:

Grimm:

View attachment 514538

Kii Three:

View attachment 514539

On aesthetics I find it's a toss up between Kii and Grimm, I like that the Grimm uses wood and not a shiny surface but I like the more slim look of the Kii.

What I'm really waiting for is for Vivid Giya G3 or larger to appear on a Klippel because all the speakers I have in my consideration are what I'd consider looking fine (Kii, Blade Meta, D&D, Grimm, MBL, and Ascend's new towers) but the Giya are speakers I love the look of.

From Stereophile's measurements Giya G3 appear that they'd sound more mellow but I find Klippel gives so much more information to work with. Also I share Erin's preference for liking speakers that are more medium-high radiation pattern, but oddly didn't mind the Blade Meta when I heard them. Still more critical listening is needed for all of them. I agreed with Tonepub Magazine's reviewer that drew some (loose) comparisons with the Quad ESL57 and I did like them with the classical lieder singers I heard them with.