The new Neumann drivers are EXTREMELY good, KH120ii and KH150. In the range of Purifi.
THD of the Grimms is where you get with a pretty good 8" speaker. But can be done better with the best modern drivers.
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GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review
- Thread starter amirm
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THD of the Grimms is where you get with a pretty good 8" speaker. But can be done better with the best modern drivers.
Finally got to hear these at Capital Audiofest. Just listened to a couple of tracks, but at least in that room they sounded pretty good, tonally balanced, and not lacking in the bottom end.
What I find more curious than what happens on the lower region of the grimm baffle, but what is happening higher up for the woofer. If I sim an 8" driver on the grimm baffle in virtuixcad, the dispersion simply doesn't look like the real world grimm dispersion at all. The grimm seems to defy convention by having an 8" woofer be about 60 degrees wider than an 8" on more typically sized baffle (~8-10"). It has no problem meeting the tweeter with a waveguide that typically requires a 5" woofer to match (Mechano23, cnote use similar 104mm tweeter in waveguide). One can compare the Adam t8v for instance which shows a gradual narrowing as freq rises on the woofer. Is there something about a narrower baffle that causes the upper range of woofers to narrow?
Yes, in short, speaker baffle diffraction can be used to widen the dispersion of a driver at specific frequency regions. A narrow as possible baffle minimizes the widening effect of the diffraction.
Rahan
Active Member
Nothing that a DSP cannot easily fix.
Most things can be fixed by EQ if the construction is good. This was however what was demonstrated at the event, and what I heard.
Unfortunately this might be unlikely to be fixed under certain parameters such as home listening.
What was called ´too bright´ here, in my opinion results from an overshoot of off-axis energy in the lowest band the tweeter is playing alone, i.e. 2-5K, particularly under angles that cause early reflections and define the tonal balance thereof. In the spinorama these windowed responses are usually called ´floor bounce´ and ´side wall bounce´ and they show exactly that, compared to the lower neighboring band.
If you try to fix this with DSP, you end up with reduced level of these bands on axis, which will most probably not result in an overall balanced tonality.
This phenomenon is very room-dependent and might not occur under conditions offering sufficient amount of absorption.
Littletycoon
Active Member
What was called 'too bright' here , is in my opinion the subjective opinion of a listener, with a speaker that is objectively measuring very very well. Anything could have been the cause for 'too bright', possibly the ears of the listener.
It is always a matter of taste having one listener audition at an event. Going back to the measurements, the reponse does have a rather shallow slope in-room. That should be audble as well.
I can absolutely confirm this subjective opinion, I found the frequency band 2-6K and the higher neighboring one to be significantly overrepresented in the room on several occasions. It is not just a bit ´too bright´ under home conditions, it is significant.
If you look at off-axis measurements, they are far from ideal, but objectively pretty problematic for certain circumstances such as listening with pronounced early reflections. Take a look at the side wall, ceiling and floor reflection calculations of the spinorama:
If you look closely, you can see that all three early reflection windows show recessed energy level below 1.8K this or that way (most pronounced the ceiling bounce due to the lobing) while peaking one or two octaves higher. The latter is a combined effect of the tweeter´s broad radiation pattern at larger wavelengths, plus the effect of the broad baffle directing soundwaves to preferably lateral directions which would otherwise just go behind the frontal half-sphere.
Due to the broad baffle keeping away these frequencies effectively from the rear half-sphere, the effect is not as strongly visible in the overall d.i. calculation as it is within these early reflection windows.
This might work well under studio or overdamped demo room conditions, particularly without reflective side walls, ceiling, desk, floor. But under home conditions, I would say it sounds as bright as one would expect it to sound.
If everything is a matter of taste, would the logical consequence not be stopping measurements and stopping judging loudspeakers based on measurements is the only way?
I don´t think so. Deviations from a technical ideal of balanced tonality can be to a certain degree predicted based on measurements, and if the case is as clear, it will be called bright-sounding, at least by people who listen to acoustic instruments or do recordings of acoustic music. If one likes bright sound, well that´s okay, but it can objectively be called bright.
I am referring to my own single listening session at an event which has many error sources. Without any control it is my subjective impression no more. Which still is that I found it too bright. E.g. I found sibiliants too emphasized in the presentation. If you have the same experience it would give more data into this.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but by this logic all speakers with broad baffles (and certainly infinite baffles) must sound bright? Mine certainly don't.
As Thomas_A pointed out, the PIR for the Grimm does have a rather shallow slope so it may in fact be a bit bright sounding. Amir did complain that he was suffering from allergies when performing his listening test which may have affected his high-frequency hearing, explaining why he didn't note it. I don't think it's a simple consequence of a speaker with a broad baffle, though.
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No, only those with a woofer/midrange driver showing pronounced narrowing of directivity (which is typical for bigger cones operating in the midrange bands), comparably low crossover frequency and tweeter with no waveguide/horn or one being operated outside the optimal window of the waveguide providing constant directivity.
This kind of brightness I am referring to, seems to be a tonal imbalance of early discrete reflections with way too less energy in the midrange, and way to much between 3 and 6K. So it is not an issue of the broad baffle but the imbalanced tonality of windows which contribute to the tonality of early reflections.
A shallow slope or linear in-room curve in the frequency bands I was mentioning, does not automatically mean a bright sound. In contrary, if the direct sound, all reflection windows and the reverb are more of less tonally balanced, it is expected to sound exemplarily natural/neutral.
A calculated in-room sum graph does not say much about perceived tonality, IMHO, so I prefer to ignore it.
Mister.Mole
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No not all speakers with broad baffles. They could also have a waveguide and it's a whole other game. If you put speakers with that kind of radiation pattern too near to sidewalls (without any treatment on those) they will sound bright.
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However inte specific case there is an increase also on-axis at 4-9 kHz vs the lower f. And the energy dip at 1-2 kHz is not helping. I am quite sensitive to the region 1-5 kHz where "wrong" dips and peaks, even rather small ones. I think we've had this discussion before though.
Littletycoon
Active Member
Not so much different compared to Kef Blade speakers. Not that many people would really know how these speakers sound in homes as these and Kef Blade speakers are typically not found in ordinary homes, way too expensive for that. I'd say, move speakers around, etc., much more useful than staring at theoretical "rooms"
This is also helped by this particular midwoofer having a phase plug which helps it not narrow... quite as much.
I had the chance to listen to both in one and the same room, admittingly not in direct comparison. It is hard to imagine two speakers offering similarly linear anechoic response, but sounding more different in terms of tonality. If you can hear both, you are sure that at least one of them is definitely colorated, if not both in opposite direction.
Keep in mind, the $40k all-in cost includes speaker, amp, DAC and sub.As the owner of the company, he probably thinks the price is too low!!
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