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GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review

Rate this speaker system:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 10 3.2%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 20 6.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 114 36.1%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 172 54.4%

  • Total voters
    316
After grappling with trying to put my subjective impression into words, maybe a few thoughts on Amir's objective measurements.

The near field resonances from the sub look slightly alarming. It is hard to tell how relevant they are going to be further away, or since they are beaming up, at the listening position. I wonder why they are so strong. Maybe this is feedback pushing nonlinearites to higher orders? Cutting the bandwidth of the output will also diminish the phase reserve available for LF feedback. Tough call on how to optimize. Maybe an acoustic absorber integrated into the grille? But in order to filter those resonances, the grill would have to become deeper.

Distortion-wise, very nice performance. As mentioned before, there is no evidence of harmonics exciting the cone modes of the W22EX midbass. The tweeter is straining around 2 kHz at higher SPL. Did this newer version of the DXT get a new motor with better saturation and/or some demodulation?

I wouldn't make too much of the 700 Hz distortion peak that appears only in the 100 dB/1 m measurement. It is defintely not excitation of the cone mode because the frequency is wrong and it excites all harmonics equally. I would guess it is something that rattles in the room, the test rig or (unlikely) the speaker cabinet. It appears well damped at low and intermediate SPL but at some point, whatever damping there is comes to a limit or it starts hitting something that resonates.

Lastly, I did an overlay with Amir's measurements of the KEF R11 Meta. I have chose that speaker because I have the R3 Meta which shares the same Uni-Q driver and also, because Amir's Klippel measurements appear highly consistent among themselves (other than some very early reviews). I also suspect Amir's microphone has lower distortion than Erin's and maybe Nuyez'. This is the reason why I didn't choose a Reference Meta review which would be closer in price to the LS1c but hasn't been measured by Amir.

This is the LS1c at 96 dB/1 m and the R11M overlaid with transparancy. The R11M is clearly about 20 dB better from 1.5 to 3 kHz. This might be the DXT straining. Most of this is HD2, so probably not critical. But HD3 is also about 5 dB and HD5 about 10 dB higher. In the range of 0.5 to 1.5 kHz, there is maybe a slight advantage for the R11M but they are really close.

The range below 200 Hz is interesting. The LS1c is easily 10 - 15 dB higher throughout, and this is not just HD2 but also HD3 and HD5 where the R11 M is consitently lower. The R11M sports four 6.5 in woofers AFIK without demodulation and has no sub. The Reference series woofers are better (compare Amir's review of the Reference 4c or Erin's level dependent measurements of the R3 and Reference 1). The LS1c has a single 8 in driver, but it sits on a wide baffle, it has two massive copper rings, and it is supported by a woofer. So what is going on here? We know back from Zaph's and HobbyHifi measurements that the W22EX is not as good far down as e.g. the 22W8555, but because it is crossed over to the sub, this should not matter here. So is it those resonances from the sub popping up here?
1747731771427.png

We get a similar picture at 102 dB for the R11M and 100 dB for the LS1c. The KEF is lower at LF and HF. It is now a tad worse in the 500 - 1 kHz range, but then it is also outputting 2 dB more. As to how relevant this all is, probably not so much.

1747733299854.png


On a side note, I'd be interested in hearing what the rationale is behind the tweeter upgrades. What do those beryllium and now carbon ply domes to either objectively that would show up in the NFS measurements or subjectively? Were there also motor upgrades?
 
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I think the top application would be studio monitors. They look impressive and would fit in a modern studio.

For home use, it will take a special customer as in these price points, typical customer is subjectivist, shying away from such things. Basically, it would be a small segment of ASR membership. :)
I'm tempted, at least to train my hearing to like those excellent objective results :) The price point is another thing, though. One could buy a decent car for that, and its not like I am rushing out to get the latest and greatest. And when I do, usually when the old one gets crashed or has aged beyond redemption, my decision is driven by a mix of rational and subjective points.
 
I wonder how audio.de got so much different response if my poor German helps me read that:

gr.PNG


(source)

Isn't what we see here a ruler flat response down to 20Hz (F3 at 17Hz) or am I reading wrong?
 
I wonder how audio.de got so much different response if my poor German helps me read that:

View attachment 452199

(source)

Isn't what we see here a ruler flat response down to 20Hz (F3 at 17Hz) or am I reading wrong?
That would be the original LS1, and it partially answers my question about the benefit of the newer fancier tweeters: it has a peak at about 25 kHz. How audible would IMD from this be?

As for the LF extension, the text says it is software selectable and can be chosen to go as low as 17 Hz. Mind you, even at 90 dB/ 1m at 40 Hz this results in -25 dBc distortion so proabably not a smart choice unless you have a small room.

In the LS1c with a sub, it is probably more about settings and choice than an inherent limitation.
 
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I think the top application would be studio monitors. They look impressive and would fit in a modern studio.

For home use, it will take a special customer as in these price points, typical customer is subjectivist, shying away from such things. Basically, it would be a small segment of ASR membership. :)
Thanks, but I still think the price is too high for either potential customer.
 
Mind you, even at 90 dB/ 1m at 40 Hz this results in -25 dBc distortion so proabably not a smart choice unless you have a small room.

In the LS1c with a sub, it is probably more about settings and choice than an inherent limitation.
These are small drivers in small cabinets, no one with the right mind would expect thundering levels, that's a given.
The thing is that it CAN go lower justifying the sub addition and the response we saw at Amir's review is configurable.

I mean some 6.5" SEAS drivers can go to 30"s (with a port) on their own (again, at reasonable SPL) , it's strange to show like that with a sub.
 
That would be the original LS1, and it partially answers my question about the benefit of the newer fancier tweeters: it has a peak at about 25 kHz. How audible would IMD from this be?

As for the LF extension, the text says it is software selectable and can be chose to go as low as 17 Hz. Mind you, even at 90 dB/ 1m at 40 Hz this results in -25 dBc distortion so proabably not a smart choice unless you have a small room.

In the LS1c with a sub, it is probably more about settings and choice than an inherent limitation.
Also Audio/Stereoplay measurements are in the bass not really anechoic as of NFS so I guess they are also influenced from boundaries like the floor.
 
Thanks Amir, a very interesting review.
I'd heard of Grimm, but they were never really on my radar before. They are now.
I'm not going to buy one, but I think this thread is going to be keenly discussed.
When Bruno Putzeys says something, I pay attention.
His white paper was truly interesting, with lots of attention to phase & time domain response, which I loved! I wish other people would pay more attention, too.
 
My own speakers. :), Genelec 8361A, Neumann 310.

Off topic:
Interesting - you did not like the KH420 as much as (or even more than) the KH310?
 
I guess they are also influenced from boundaries like the floor.
It should, agreed, but it's some 12dB difference we see there. And not to some easy place, 12dB at 20Hz is not easily done.
 
I guess the price is simply not competitive anymore (they used to be much cheaper when they came out).
Nevertheless, on HighEnd Munich (few years ago) they blasted me away with a Rammstein demo.
I really can feel with Amir - they have some magic and they can sound like a revelation in terms of naturalness.
 
I do think it's a well-designed speaker, but when you can get speakers with the same or even better specs for much less, it makes me question where the $26,500 price tag is really justified.
 
Hi

Impressive speakers , impressive performance.. Price is steep, too steep.
It seems to me, that kind of performance can be achieved at more mundane prices...
Not sure it provides better performances than a pair of 8361 (About $10K), at least on paper.
True it is an Audio System but at $45,000 it encroaches the Genelec W371 + 8361 combo, @$28 K...
Or, one could go full Genelec ( a la @Pearljam5000 )- crazy :D and add a pair of Genelec 7380A subwoofer for an additional $12,000 ... Around $40,000 for a full range Uber performance: Uber SPL, low distortion, supreme directivity audio system...
Or the Kii XBT
Or ...
..
On this, the term "Genius" is overused to the point of trivialization, but Bruno Putzeys qualifies as such. Wow!!... His contributions to the field span from electronics to speakers and even drivers ... rather unique and somehow understated... Re-WoW

Peace.
 
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I also suspect Amir's microphone has lower distortion than Erin's and maybe Nuyez'

Nein. Both Amir and Erin use the same Microtech Gefell MK225 pre-polarised mic capsule. The NFS doesn't come with a microphone, you have to supply your own, or buy one they recommend. Now the sales engineers at Klippel will suggest an industry standard 3Hz to 20KHz 50mV/Pa because it's a) low noise and b)measures up the standard audible range 20KHz. The G.R.A.S. or Microtech Gefell they have on stock; and the very good but more affordable MtG is usually recommended.

This is a pre-polarized electret condenser 1/2" mic capsule, and here is manufacturer's datasheet for it: capsule
Klippel specify it's Max. SPL before clipping as "135dB, 1% clipping point" after attachment to the pre-amp (eg. MV210- IEPE; or MV220- 48V phantom power). If 146dB is the 3% (-30dB) clipping point then it follows then it follows that
The -80dB distortion point of the microphone is ~50dB lower. i.e. 146-50 = 96dB.
The -70dB distortion point of the microphone is ~40dB lower i.e. 146-40 = 106dB

In short, if one wants to characterise a transducer who's true H2 is between -70dB to -60dB (error margin +/- 0.5dB), then the observation limit for the Microtech Gefell MK255 is 96dB to 106dB
.

Which makes it fine at 1m for distortion measurement in the midrange and treble frequencies. But the swept sine method to measure distortion relies on accurate measurement of the frequency response, and so it's very hard to characterise bass distortion properly when measuring at 1m non-anechoic. This is why the bass distortion appears a lot higher than it truly is, compared to measuring bass harmonics with a nearfield measurement. But of course, that would subject the mic is huge SPLs near it's clipping point.

Erin's NFS doesn't support 48V phantom power, but if Amir's does, then he can upgrade to the MK202 with the MV225 pre-amp.

So as it stands, the SB1's Digital Motion Feedback's effectiveness (or lack thereof) cannot be assessed as it is presently done.

Anyway, thanks for the review @amirm . Interesting, as always, what the price of a car can buy...
 
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I think the point/answer to both of these is the same.... Aesthetics.
For sure, but there a technical argument also. The upper corner is too far away from the tweeter as to have any effect.

Otherwise, I personally like the design a lot. It reminds me of my youth's 'box of bricks' (do you say that?). It was a very expensive one, so I never really got it ;-[
It fits many people's ideas on interior design, me thinks, but it is not really practical. It is too space consuming, and attracts attention too much in the end.

Some decades back now I followed similar ideas, really. It ended up to be put onto a wall, not free standing, around a 90° corner, and by that toe'ed in by an extra 15° given the standard stereo triangle of 60° ...

Way too expensive for me. I have to wait until IKEA or Walmart will have it too.
 
And this is why the SB1's Digital Motion Feedback can't be assessed due to the standard microphone...
Their advertizing paper:

This is wrong, me thinks:
"At first it seems most straightforward to measure the sound with a microphone. Indeed this can be done, however… a microphone will measure all sounds and not only the sound from the loudspeaker, like people talking, noises of cats and dogs, but also reflected sound via walls. Especially the latter are a problem as they come later and cause the feedback controller to correct something that is no longer there, a typical cause for instability. One may think that mounting the microphone inside the enclosure would solve this. Unfortunately however, ..."

In feedback there is a clean signal and a difference, the error. The f/b will attenuate the error. Outside noises, not contained in the signal, are corrected until they vanish, not beyond! In consequence the outside noise will be canccelled by the speaker, it acts like a 'black hole' for them, suck in and don't let it back out.

More so, the piezo/electric sensor measures cone acceleration. This acceleration translates to sound proportionally.

Background: I did motional feedback using a microphone myself back in the day. No problems if the feedbackloop is stable otherwise. Limit is the SPL capability of the mic.
 
Hi

Impressive speakers , impressive performance.. Price is steep, too steep.
It seems to me that that kind of performance can be achieved at more mundane prices...
Not sure it provides better performances than a pair of 8361 (About $10K) at least on paper.
True it is an Audio System but at $45,000 it encroaches the Genelec W371 + 8361 combo, @$28 K...
Or, one could go full Genelec ( a la @Pearljam5000 )- crazy and add a pair of Genelec 7380A subwoofer for an additional $12,000 ... Around $40,000 for a full range Uber performance: Uber SPL, low distortion, supreme directivity audio system...
Or the Kii XBT
Or ...
..
On this, the term "Genius" is overused to the point of trivialization, but Bruno Putzeys qualifies as such. Wow!!... His contributions to the field span from electronics to speakers and even drivers ... rather unique and somehow understated... Re-WoW

Peace.
8381 or nothing ;)

 
Two things stuck out:
1. The ASR measured bass reminds me of my HT Elac DB62 fronts ($225/pair). We are often surprised at the bass quality & quantity from these little speakers!
2. The Stereophile measurements reminds me of my Paradigm Studio 20 V2 ($600/pair in 2002), my HiFi speakers for twenty years. I placed them a quarter wavelength at 150Hz from the rear wall thinking I was counteracting the measured bass hump, wrong! Recently I added an FM tuner to the HiFi, male announcers were far too chesty. The Elac DB62 sounded a lot more natural. So I fooled myself for twenty years, so much for being an audiophile!!!
 
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Unusual with its quasi-internal upward-pointing sub. Did it present any interesting challenges to scan it with the Klippel?
Klippel loved it! It easily characterized it's high frequency response, indicating absence of interference.
 
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