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GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
as a layman, I cant help but notice the similarity with lx 521.4. A woofer with an open baffle on top. I wonder if they have the same "science" behind them.
Vuki
Senior Member
It's not open baffle
Goosebumps!
Many many thanks to Amir for this fantastic review. This is exactly what we've all been waiting for. Finally, an analysis of an absolute top-class loudspeaker setup!
Now all that's missing is a Geithain RL 921k or RL 901k on the Klippel test bench to finally settle the all-important question:
Neumann KH 420 (EUR 11,000/pair) or Geithain RL 921k (EUR 14,500)
German studio-gear rocks wild!!!
Many many thanks to Amir for this fantastic review. This is exactly what we've all been waiting for. Finally, an analysis of an absolute top-class loudspeaker setup!
Now all that's missing is a Geithain RL 921k or RL 901k on the Klippel test bench to finally settle the all-important question:
Neumann KH 420 (EUR 11,000/pair) or Geithain RL 921k (EUR 14,500)
German studio-gear rocks wild!!!
Applause to Grimm Audio for taking the trouble to send a speaker to Amir for testing. I have heard this speaker several times and also with explanations from the owners of Grimm audio. A few years ago it was standard to place the subwoofer inside the speaker, nowadays this is not the advice as better results can be achieved if the subwoofer is placed somewhere else.
As for the price, in my opinion all Grimm audio products are (too) expensively priced. But it is a small company with probably relatively small sales numbers so the overhead costs per product are high.
As for the price, in my opinion all Grimm audio products are (too) expensively priced. But it is a small company with probably relatively small sales numbers so the overhead costs per product are high.
We had the LS1s from the beginning ( they were like everything ) much cheaper back then, Bruno Putzeys first speaker design, I have heard that when Bruno showed his next prototype Eelco and Guido weren’t convinced and Kii was born.
Transparent speakers but never bass monsters.
Transparent speakers but never bass monsters.
Vuki
Senior Member
What good is a measurement if it doesn't reflect real world usage situation?
No one listens in 4pi environment.
What does predicted in-room response say?
No one listens in 4pi environment.
What does predicted in-room response say?
When a speakers measures well anechoic-ally or in this case on the NFS that always translates into a more transparent sound in room, always.
Keith
Keith
I listened to them at High End Munich this weekend and had a nice chat with Guido Tent (cheers, Guido!). The room was quite large (maybe 80 m²?) and had treatment on the walls. The listening area consisted of about 5 x 4 or x 5 chairs. The LS1c were at maybe 40° to the long axis of the room, resulting in a very stubby listening tryangle. Their distance to the center chair of the front row was maybe 3 - 4 m each and they were aligned to be pointing right at that seat. For the other rows this resulted in some toe-in, which is probably how these were intended to be listened to. The SPL was high but not outrageously so.
It was my first time listening to any incarnation of the LS1, and I was fascinated and probably spent more time at this exhibit than any other. During my first session, I had a chance to work my place up from standing in the back to the back row and then to the center and front rows. The general picture did not change with position. It sounded very clean, however, when sitting back and center, there was always someone directly in my line of sight to at least one speaker which may have disturbed the imaging. Once in the front row, it was a little bit like wearing giant open-backed headphones. Overall, my listening impression did not change so much, even when I was standing in the back of the room later. The pieces played showcased the capabilities of the speakers, especially the subs that went very low without screaming sub. Unfortunately, there were few close-miked voice (other than Björk screaming into the microphone) or solo instrument recordings to judge imaging. I later asked Guido for female voice, and he kindly obliged, but I wasn't familiar with the artist or recording (note to self: find recording and listen at home).
There was something I couldn't quite put my finger on that bugged me. I couldn't describe it to Guido, and I still can't fully explain it after some reflection. The best I can do is to say that voices sounded clean but remote until the was a forte passage when they jumped right at me. I was trying fo find rational explanations and reread the original LS1 whitepaper by Bruno and reviews of the LS1 and LS1be. I had already retired the idea that it was distortion from excitation of the cone modes of the W22EX midbass as I had found distortion mesasuremens of the LS1 and newer versions. Quite amazing, actually, with only a LR4 XO and no current drive or damping of the cone mode with a parallel resonant circuit was used in the LS1. I was starting to look for directivity plots when Amir's review came in.
I was hypothesizing that it was the rather large midwoofer starting to beam that was bothering me (I have never owned a two way with anything larger than a five inch midbass, let alone an 8 inch with a pistonic cone), but the directivity plots are beautifully smooth. Could it be the absence of baffle diffraction and perfect waterfall? I don't think so. These days, I listen mainly to KEF R3 Meta which do not have a wide baffle but the shadow flare should direct most of the sound away from the edge. I also have Capacity electrostatics, and I have had several chances to listen to minimal baffle dipoles at diy events, all of which should have minimal baffle edge diffraction. But I should point out that I have never listened to anything that has such a wide and constant directivity dispersion (the Google Nest Audio comes close and probably also has little baffle diffraction due to its round shape but it becomes a monopole way higher in frequency - and the subjective impression was quite different to the LS1c's).
So what was I missing? Maybe this immediacy of reproduction, the slightly goose-bump inducing feeling that the singer is right there in the room (I have this with the Google Nest Audio, which I bought just for fun after Amir's review. That was mono as I wasn't yet able to get two to work as a stereo pair). I may generally have a thing for small midranges or full ranges. I realize an audio fair is not the place for critical listening and comparisons, but the few times I was struck by the sound of a speaker, it was usally something with a 4-5 in midrange, sometimes even a coax.
I did listen to the Kiii Seven playing in a larger room without subs at considerable volume. Other than being also Bruno's brainchild, they also address the baffle diffraction, though through side woofers. I was impressed by how cleanly and how low those could play with just two 6.5 in woofers. I liked voices a little better (then maybe the recordings were more amenable to that) but I was not blown away. When I returned later, they were doing some ambient immersion with five or more speakers playing, so not my thing. Oh, and I visited to Manger room twice to listen to two different pairs of speakers. When I first listened to Mangers at the High End fair near Frankfurt more than 20 years ago, I was blown away and shortly after acquired a pair of used drivers, had them refurbished at Manger and used them in a diy system for several years until the voice coil contacts failed again. I know how terribly the MSW measure, and I never understood how they can be so appealing regardless. Anyway, this time, they didn't sound as flashy as I remembered them, more laid-back and neutral (maybe some of the glaring imperfections of these drivers were ironed out by DSP?). But they sounded immediately right, and I liked voices quite well, even if they were not goose-bump inducing.
So what to make of the LS1c? Evidently, a very good speaker with a lot of thought and good engineering invested in them. Maybe it is just my spoiled listening habits that keep me from fully appreciating them. More exposure may change this...
It was my first time listening to any incarnation of the LS1, and I was fascinated and probably spent more time at this exhibit than any other. During my first session, I had a chance to work my place up from standing in the back to the back row and then to the center and front rows. The general picture did not change with position. It sounded very clean, however, when sitting back and center, there was always someone directly in my line of sight to at least one speaker which may have disturbed the imaging. Once in the front row, it was a little bit like wearing giant open-backed headphones. Overall, my listening impression did not change so much, even when I was standing in the back of the room later. The pieces played showcased the capabilities of the speakers, especially the subs that went very low without screaming sub. Unfortunately, there were few close-miked voice (other than Björk screaming into the microphone) or solo instrument recordings to judge imaging. I later asked Guido for female voice, and he kindly obliged, but I wasn't familiar with the artist or recording (note to self: find recording and listen at home).
There was something I couldn't quite put my finger on that bugged me. I couldn't describe it to Guido, and I still can't fully explain it after some reflection. The best I can do is to say that voices sounded clean but remote until the was a forte passage when they jumped right at me. I was trying fo find rational explanations and reread the original LS1 whitepaper by Bruno and reviews of the LS1 and LS1be. I had already retired the idea that it was distortion from excitation of the cone modes of the W22EX midbass as I had found distortion mesasuremens of the LS1 and newer versions. Quite amazing, actually, with only a LR4 XO and no current drive or damping of the cone mode with a parallel resonant circuit was used in the LS1. I was starting to look for directivity plots when Amir's review came in.
I was hypothesizing that it was the rather large midwoofer starting to beam that was bothering me (I have never owned a two way with anything larger than a five inch midbass, let alone an 8 inch with a pistonic cone), but the directivity plots are beautifully smooth. Could it be the absence of baffle diffraction and perfect waterfall? I don't think so. These days, I listen mainly to KEF R3 Meta which do not have a wide baffle but the shadow flare should direct most of the sound away from the edge. I also have Capacity electrostatics, and I have had several chances to listen to minimal baffle dipoles at diy events, all of which should have minimal baffle edge diffraction. But I should point out that I have never listened to anything that has such a wide and constant directivity dispersion (the Google Nest Audio comes close and probably also has little baffle diffraction due to its round shape but it becomes a monopole way higher in frequency - and the subjective impression was quite different to the LS1c's).
So what was I missing? Maybe this immediacy of reproduction, the slightly goose-bump inducing feeling that the singer is right there in the room (I have this with the Google Nest Audio, which I bought just for fun after Amir's review. That was mono as I wasn't yet able to get two to work as a stereo pair). I may generally have a thing for small midranges or full ranges. I realize an audio fair is not the place for critical listening and comparisons, but the few times I was struck by the sound of a speaker, it was usally something with a 4-5 in midrange, sometimes even a coax.
I did listen to the Kiii Seven playing in a larger room without subs at considerable volume. Other than being also Bruno's brainchild, they also address the baffle diffraction, though through side woofers. I was impressed by how cleanly and how low those could play with just two 6.5 in woofers. I liked voices a little better (then maybe the recordings were more amenable to that) but I was not blown away. When I returned later, they were doing some ambient immersion with five or more speakers playing, so not my thing. Oh, and I visited to Manger room twice to listen to two different pairs of speakers. When I first listened to Mangers at the High End fair near Frankfurt more than 20 years ago, I was blown away and shortly after acquired a pair of used drivers, had them refurbished at Manger and used them in a diy system for several years until the voice coil contacts failed again. I know how terribly the MSW measure, and I never understood how they can be so appealing regardless. Anyway, this time, they didn't sound as flashy as I remembered them, more laid-back and neutral (maybe some of the glaring imperfections of these drivers were ironed out by DSP?). But they sounded immediately right, and I liked voices quite well, even if they were not goose-bump inducing.
So what to make of the LS1c? Evidently, a very good speaker with a lot of thought and good engineering invested in them. Maybe it is just my spoiled listening habits that keep me from fully appreciating them. More exposure may change this...
Last edited:
thewas
Master Contributor
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I was lucky to hear the original LS1 at show when they were released 15 years ago and really enjoyed them as well as their white paper which shows how someone can nowadays engineer a good loudspeaker using the current DSP state of art and acoustic principles like wide rounded baffle.
The drivers of the original LS1 could be bought for less than 1000$/€ per side
so few nice DIY clones appeared from time to time, examplary
www.hifi-selbstbau.de
Speakers white paper - Grimm Audio
Grimm Audio’s LS1 is an unusual loudspeaker. Its wide but shallow cabinet is the direct opposite of nearly all contemporary loudspeakers and the DSP filter is mainly IIR based in spite of the availability of cheap DSP. Why? This white paper argues that all choices derive from basic acoustics...
www.grimmaudio.com
The drivers of the original LS1 could be bought for less than 1000$/€ per side
so few nice DIY clones appeared from time to time, examplary
Duo á la Grimm...
HiFi-Selbstbau - Das DIY Online Magazin für hochwertiges HiFi
www.hifi-selbstbau.de
The estimated in room response shows the LF gradually rolling off from 150Hz.
I'm wondering if this is why I found them to be unspectacular on audition? They were clean and smooth, no question, but they were not the experience I had been expecting.
I'm wondering if this is why I found them to be unspectacular on audition? They were clean and smooth, no question, but they were not the experience I had been expecting.
Wow, the radiation pattern is something else. Paired with that linearity, distortion performance and cool features, this is actually a reasonable price for that speaker design. I think I even saw it at the High End and left with an approving nod.
Thanks GRIMM for brining something fresh to the table.
Thanks GRIMM for brining something fresh to the table.
Vini darko
Major Contributor
Thanks for sending it in Grim. Didn't expect the glowing review after seeing the design and price.
AudioSceptic
Major Contributor
Very nice, but who is the market for this? Does it look "impressive" enough to sell to the home market at such a high price, and pro engineers of course have no need for the "pretty" looks and finish. What's the -6 dB point in the bass? I'm trying to estimate it from your FR graph and it looks like about 40 Hz. Should we expect better for the money?This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of the GRIMM Audio LS1c active DSP speaker and its companion SB1 subwoofer. It was sent to me by the company. Speakers cost US $26,500 in the tested finish (pair). Companion SB1 sub costs US $12,750 for the set, brining the total to $39,250 (other finishes cost a bit more/less).
View attachment 452122
This is one gorgeous and unique looking speaker! It nicely crosses the bridge between bland studio monitors and home speakers. Innovative mechanical engineering is employed to ship the speaker safely in multiple parts that you put together. Clever things such as magnets on side columns that attach to the sides of the main unit put a smile on your face. As does the SB1 subwoofer which tightly slides into the bass of the speaker, making it look like it is built in. Grill is provided for it although probably still not safe with kids and pets around.
Here is a closer look at the sub:
View attachment 452139
The wiring is optimized for the sub with short cables provided to pass both digital data and power:
View attachment 452123
Control ports can actually carry digital data which is the utilized to complete the system with LS1i USB which as a DSP bridge and configurator:
View attachment 452124
Plug the this into the USB port of your computer and it shows up as a DAC. A control panel then provides simple interface for changing inputs and such. On that front, on my high dpi laptop, the buttons overlapped a bit. There was a bit of work also to figure out that this is what you have to do to select inputs. I wish there was a physical selector on the speaker so I could do that easier.
Both the speaker and subwoofer are sealed. Amplification is provided courtesy of Hypex amplifiers.
One of the problems using studio monitors with digital audio is how to handle volume control. GRIMM nicely solves that with the LS1r controller:
View attachment 452126
The rotary controller is a joy to use. I would sit there and keep adjusting the volume for the fun of it.
These are optional extras. LS1i USB costs US $1,200 and the LS1r, $US 1,650.
While it is possible to use the speaker in 2-way configuration, I went for the 3-way setup with the SB1 subwoofer. System was tested as a whole on Klippel Near-field scanner. I have shared my measurements with the company but have not heard of they see any issues with them.
GRIMM Audio LS1c and SB1 Subwoofer Measurements
As usual, we start with our computed anechoic family of frequency responses:
View attachment 452127
Other than some tiny variations, the on-axis response is almost perfectly flat. We can see that the blue early window directivity is essentially a copy of that, with a tinies of dip at crossover frequency of 1.5 kHz. There is little droop in that, or the power response for that matter, implying wide directivity (shown later). Usually with good directivity, we sacrifice wide response but we seem to have both of them here, indicating some clever engineering.
Here is the early window broken out:
View attachment 452128
If you want to reduce the slight dip, use a ceiling absorber or have high ceilings.
The combination of flat on-axis and similar early window results in excellent predicted in-room response:
View attachment 452129
Typical of studio monitors, the slope is rather shallow. Will be interesting to see if the speaker gets penalize for this in the preference score.
Near field response of the drivers shows very good response with only stand-out being low level resonances from the sub:
View attachment 452130
Distortion is very well managed both at 86 and 96 dBSPL:
View attachment 452131
View attachment 452132
I went up to 100 dBSPL and all of a sudden, saw a new resonance:
View attachment 452133
It may be a measurement, error, I am not sure. The sweep certainly sounded clean still.
As noted, directivity is quite wide, probably the widest I have measured:
View attachment 452134
Woofer nicely blends into the tweeter, after which it starts to beam somewhat. For most of the range, you have similar levels of response to sides of the speaker and then some!
View attachment 452135
The round edges essentially eliminate diffraction errors as evidenced by clean (relatively speaking) trend from red to white. Little jaggedness is to be seen.
Vertical has the similar issues of 2-way speakers although by placing the tweeter below woofer, you are much more likely to be sitting at optimal angle:
View attachment 452136
The shocker, in a good way, came in the form of waterfall:
View attachment 452137
As you see, the response stops on a dime and that is that. I don't think I have ever tested a speaker that was this good.
And fans of step response can rejoice in how the overall response is as if there is only one driver player:
View attachment 452138
GRIMM LS1c & SB1 Subwoofer Listening Tests
Due to size and weight of the speaker system, I chose to listen to it in our living room as opposed to dedicated music space. This is a very large space with 30+ feet ceilings. It is also highly reflective. Boy did the combo shine in this environment. I always start with female vocals and here, I was hearing an effect I had not experienced before: the vocals would separate out tonally and spatially from the rest of the band in the most delightful way. The halo was quite large around the (single) speaker I was listening to as well, making for a wonderful experience. This was still there somewhat with male vocals but really, there with females. Maybe it is the wide directivity. I am not sure but whatever it was, it put the LS1c+SB1 combo in a class by itself.
It is spring here and my allergies are bad which usually serves to reduce my high frequency response. That disclaimer stated, I found the tonality wonderful with zero need to modify anything so I sent the EQ team on a well deserved vacation. High frequency clarity was out of this world in the way those notes would shimmer and tell you they are there in only right amount.
Sub-bass response was fine meaning it was there with controlled/very mild level of distortion. Go up a few hertz though, and this SB1 would make you sit up and take notice. Not because it stood out but because while being fully integrated, it could pump out serious bass and upper bass notes that were ultra clean.
Despite evaluating just one speaker, I could sit there and listen for hours and hours. Indeed I did fair amount of that without either our dogs or my wife complaining!
Conclusions
It is a breath of fresh air to see a speaker be different from looks to functionality yet provide what we expect as far as ideal response. Not only the objective response is there, the combination of LS1c and SB1 delight this reviewer in ways he has not experienced. The integration provided through the external accessories it not to be underestimated in the way you can just plug everything and start playing and controlling the system without a glitch or any issues whatsoever.
Does the system look like a $45,000 one? Probably not. But the experience, considering that it includes everything you need from amplification to DAC and subwoofer, it within what can be justified. For some people at least, myself included.
It is my pleasure to recommend the LS1c and SB1 subwoofer plus its control accessories.
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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.
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It’s great to have an expensive speaker reviewed, thanks @amirm. This one seems to justify its price point to some extent. At least it performs exceptionally which is the minimum for something as costly.
I think the waterfall is worth further discussion. I haven’t seen anything as clean reviewed on ASR which suggests that it offers superior time domain performance, something not shown in other measurements. I know Amir doesn’t hold much weight in CSD data, but I would like to understand which other data set(s) tell us what the waterfall does? It’s especially interesting to me because the subjective impressions are possibly the most positive I’ve read from Amir.
Also does the preference score take time domain performance into account? I don’t think so.
Thanks for the test Amir! Speaker tests, the most interesting tests you do. At least that's what I think and I suspect many others share that opinion.
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I leave the price aside. I think the looks were pretty cool BUT why not build two subwoofers/bass boxes that take up the entire space under the speaker, against the speaker stand down to the floor? The space is there so why not fill it with as much bass box volume as possible? Same surface finish on the bass boxes as the speaker. Okay then it will be more or less, regarding looks, like a conventional three-way speaker but still.
AudioSceptic
Major Contributor
I know it's largely semantics, but I agree with Davey's next sentence:
"The measured system response (at typical distance) is modified by the room. (That is quite a different thing.)"
AudioSceptic
Major Contributor
I would love to see a review here of the Unity Audio Boulder (Sound On Sound liked an early version). It's made for the pro market but I think would still look great at home. The price is reasonable too! <https://unityaudioproducts.co.uk/products.php>Goosebumps!
Many many thanks to Amir for this fantastic review. This is exactly what we've all been waiting for. Finally, an analysis of an absolute top-class loudspeaker setup!
Now all that's missing is a Geithain RL 921k or RL 901k on the Klippel test bench to finally settle the all-important question:
Neumann KH 420 (EUR 11,000/pair) or Geithain RL 921k (EUR 14,500)
German studio-gear rocks wild!!!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #59
I think the top application would be studio monitors. They look impressive and would fit in a modern studio.
For home use, it will take a special customer as in these price points, typical customer is subjectivist, shying away from such things. Basically, it would be a small segment of ASR membership.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #60
That's a good suggestion!I leave the price aside. I think the looks were pretty cool BUT why not build two subwoofers/bass boxes that take up the entire space under the speaker, against the speaker stand down to the floor? The space is there so why not fill it with as much bass box volume as possible? Same surface finish on the bass boxes as the speaker. Okay then it will be more or less, regarding looks, like a conventional three-way speaker but still.
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