GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review

[Sokel]

Indeed, but if the company doesn't see a problem with the measurements then it stops I’m afraid. The only remaining question for me is if we received an official response from the right people at Grimm HQ or just from the dealer.

That's the response of the mid-bass driver as measured here

It seems to be about -15dB at 20Hz relative to 100Hz as expected from an 8" driver down there more or less at a small enclosure.
That's about the same response we see here but with the added sub. That's the strangest of all. Is if like the sub is not there at all.

 

[amirm]

Question to @amirm how was the step response generated? Is it separate or from the spin?

It is separate from the spin. But it is generated from the CHIRP sweep mathematically just like REW, etc. produce it. In other words, speaker was NOT subjected to an actual step signal.

 

[amirm]

That's the response of the mid-bass driver as measured here

You didn't read the fine print in the pdf, did you?

We don't have infinite baffle. Nor do we do "calculations." Without, the drop off is much more steep.

 

[Hayabusa]

Indeed, but if the company doesn't see a problem with the measurements then it stops I’m afraid. The only remaining question for me is if we received an official response from the right people at Grimm HQ or just from the dealer.

I just asked Guido Tent on linked-in if he could have a look here to get some more clarity.

 

[Sokel]

You didn't read the fine print in the pdf, did you?

View attachment 453035
We don't have infinite baffle. Nor do we do "calculations." Without, the drop off is much more steep.

I did and I also calculated the enclosure.
Look for example how close its distortion pattern follows the measurements we see here at 90dB:



Higher than that it completely falls apart here.
Don't you find that strange as a stated low distortion sub aids down there too?

 

[Frank Dernie]

The Genelec 8361 offers bass adjustment for compensating for room location.

I expect only somebody using GLM would not find some sort of bass roll off better in room for multiple listeners since GLM, and all other room compensation software only gets the balance near right in one listening position and can and often is worse everywhere else in the room.
This is the Genelec set of options:

All that Grimm have done IMO is to choose a suitable roll off for a typical domestic installation, given it isn't a pro monitor, and it looks very sensible to me tbh, unlike a lot of the angst from enthusiastic non-experts on an internet forum.

I detest boomy bass and also, since we often listen as a family of 6, find room compensation software worse than carefully positioning the speakers to avoid exciting the main modes too much. I only use room compensation when listening on my own.

IME what Grimm are doing here makes more sense for domestic use than a flat response speaker booming away until massive bass cuts are applied (for one listener).

But that is just me.

 

[Arindal]

all other speakers with extended bass will be on the floor as well. We don't give them that boost, why start here?

The difference is the position of the subwoofer drivers. If they are all close to the floor like with Grimm, the boundary effect is predictable and I see no reason to implement a free-field preset. Except for looking nice on anechoic measurements.

If you give them boost or not, does not really matter much with active speakers offering a certain degree of flexibility with their DSP. It might matter for the reference level of any dynamic measurement, but that is a complicated topic.

 

[Thomas_A]

The difference is the position of the subwoofer drivers. If they are all close to the floor like with Grimm, the boundary effect is predictable and I see no reason to implement a free-field preset. Except for looking nice on anechoic measurements.

If you give them boost or not, does not really matter much with active speakers offering a certain degree of flexibility with their DSP. It might matter for the reference level of any dynamic measurement, but that is a complicated topic.Woo

Woofer gets floor boundary effect <100 Hz even if it is placed "high". Room cavity effects kicks in below 50 Hz and varies between rooms (size, open/sealed etc). To that add standing waves etc..

 

[Purité Audio]

I had a demo of them when I was in the market for new speakers - I thought they were quite unspectacular and not worth the money (they were a lot less than forty grand at the time).

Not all people on forums don't know what they are talking about. Especially here. The speaker is compromised to an extent not justified by its price. That is nothing new of course, many speakers fall into that category. They are good speakers, but you can get better for a lot less.

We had a pair from more or less their launch, (there was a Keith Howard review which I had read) and the last pair, the complete top of the range spec were here until a couple of years ago and I really only purchased that pair because we had a serious customer enquiry.
At £9k they were a good buy at £47k? not so much!
Keith

 

[amirm]

The difference is the position of the subwoofer drivers. If they are all close to the floor like with Grimm, the boundary effect is predictable and I see no reason to implement a free-field preset.

One more time... The port and bass drivers are near floor in other speakers as well. Just because you put an amp in a speaker (i.e. sub), it doesn't become anything special as far as soundwaves are concerned down low.

 

[Thomas_A]

From:

http://customanalogue.com/elsinore/files/bass_article.pdf

 

[Vuki]

The Genelec 8361 offers bass adjustment for compensating for room location.

I expect only somebody using GLM would not find some sort of bass roll off better in room for multiple listeners since GLM, and all other room compensation software only gets the balance near right in one listening position and can and often is worse everywhere else in the room.
This is the Genelec set of options:
View attachment 453037

All that Grimm have done IMO is to choose a suitable roll off for a typical domestic installation, given it isn't a pro monitor, and it looks very sensible to me tbh, unlike a lot of the angst from enthusiastic non-experts on an internet forum.

I detest boomy bass and also, since we often listen as a family of 6, find room compensation software worse than carefully positioning the speakers to avoid exciting the main modes too much. I only use room compensation when listening on my own.

IME what Grimm are doing here makes more sense for domestic use than a flat response speaker booming away until massive bass cuts are applied (for one listener).

But that is just me.

Once again:

Genelec 8361 measured by audio vs asr

Grimm LS1 measured by audio vs asr:

Difference @20Hz -ca.18dB!


Audio magazin managed to measure Genelec (and some other) loudspeaker right, but missed it with Grimm, or maybe Grimm wasn't setup as it should be during ASR measurement?

 

[Purité Audio]

If you have read the LS1 manual that I posted you will have seen there are limited ‘set-up’ parameters and no way to boost bass.
Keith

 

[Vuki]

If you have read the LS1 manual that I posted you will have seen there are limited ‘set-up’ parameters and no way to boost bass.
Keith

What are you talking about? ....EQ, low shelf, etc....and how about that "Sim" button?

 

[Frank Dernie]

Once again:

Genelec 8361 measured by audio vs asr

View attachment 453046

Grimm LS1 measured by audio vs asr:

View attachment 453050

View attachment 453053

Difference @20Hz -ca.18dB!


Audio magazin managed to measure Genelec (and some other) loudspeaker right, but missed it with Grimm, or maybe Grimm wasn't setup as it should be during ASR measurement?

 

[Vuki]

what?

 

[sigbergaudio]

It's an interesting discussion with regards to the bass in anechoic situations.

Nearfield of our new Saranna (50 cm non-anechoic):

Anechoic chamber where the speaker had to stand upside down to be able to get the microphone tall enough, meaning one of the bass drivers + the bass port is probably 3 meters from the floor:

So in the chamber with the bass "up in the air", 20hz is more than 20dB down from the main signal. Nearfield it's essentially flat.

 

[olieb]

If you have read the LS1 manual that I posted you will have seen there are limited ‘set-up’ parameters and no way to boost bass.

From the picture that Amir posted earlier, it looks otherwise.

I do not know by how much the sub gain can be adjusted, but it is probably not just 2-3dB.
In a typical listening situation (living room) the default setting seems to produce a good and reasonable choice for the FR in bass. The sound was good to excellent.

It seems as if Audio measured with considerable sub gain, when Amir used the default.

If one assumes that the bass attenuation is a result of lowering the gain of the sub, all the measurements make sense.
The sub seems to be lowered by >6dB (from "ground plane ides" and room compensation) relative to flat level anechoically.
The sub would then produce much less displacement volume at the design crossover frequency (≈70Hz, LR2) than the woofer.
My guess is the frequency where the two drivers will produce the same displacement volume is in the range ≈40-45Hz. No wonder that the distortion of the system is higher than one would expect for such a sub.
Maybe one could align the sub and main more clever.

 

[Purité Audio]

My mistake I should have said there is limited bass gain but the speaker was measured ( I believe) at its default ‘0dB’ default free field setting.
Keith

 

[mar1o]

That's the response of the mid-bass driver as measured here

View attachment 453027

It seems to be about -15dB at 20Hz relative to 100Hz as expected from an 8" driver down there more or less at a small enclosure.
That's about the same response we see here but with the added sub. That's the strangest of all. Is if like the sub is not there at all.

I'm not sure if you're aware of it. But this is a different version of the bass-midrange driver.