GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review

[IngMishael]

Pretty good showing but yup bit rich for the blood and they left some performance on the table.

But that is a pretty good CEA showing regardless of cost and that can't be refuted. Yes, there are better combo systems but this has its place in esoterica audio

Will want to hear them one time though. Sounds like amirm had some good time with them

 

[a4eaudio]

This speaker system has been available for quite a few years now.
It's not a great value, and there are many alternatives.......

I just wonder why they chose to not put a round over on the top of the speaker.

I think the point/answer to both of these is the same.... Aesthetics. When you get to this price point, a big determinant of the choice is that it is a statement piece. In this case, unlike a lot of $40k+ speakers, it actually measures and sounds great.

I'd flip the comments above on their head... Rather than focusing on the fact that there are a lot of choices that measure well for a lot less... There are a lot of speakers that cost a lot more and measure worse.

 

[Cool Runnings]

Wish there was a rating between Great and Fine.

The price and looks knock this down from Great for me.

 

[IngMishael]

I think the point/answer to both of these is the same.... Aesthetics. When you get to this price point, a big determinant of the choice is that it is a statement piece. In this case, unlike a lot of $40k+ speakers, it actually measures and sounds great.

I'd flip the comments above on their head... Rather than focusing on the fact that there are a lot of choices that measure well for a lot less... There are a lot of speakers that cost a lot more and measure worse.

yup we shouldn't reduce speaker reviews to just oh this has better so, so and so. Amirm is the one who heard the speaker and he likes how it presented his music. I'd hazard people will want to listen first before concluding even though we know the potency of CEA data split

 

[Bruce Morgen]

This speaker can also be created by a DIY-inclined person for way less money.

I think recreating its DSP and multiple interconnection features would require a broader skillset than that of a typical "DIY-inclined" speaker builder -- but given the requisite level of knowledge, experience, and patience, I'm sure some major savings are there to be had for the suitably inspired and intrepid.

 

[Vuki]

BTW, compare my measurements to that of stereophile:

They really need to correct for their near-field response error (the bump). It makes speakers like LS1c look bad for no reason.

All the other measurements I've seen show it's flat to at least 40Hz. Something is not right here.

 

[bmc0]

They really need to correct for their near-field response error (the bump). It makes speakers like LS1c look bad for no reason.

I agree, but the response you measured is arguably not quite representative of the intended use. The NFS gives the anechoic response, but the subwoofer is supposed to be more-or-less in half space (i.e. on the floor). The crossover looks to be LR2 at 70Hz, so with the subwoofer in full space rather than half space the idealized frequency response looks like this:

Applying the reciprocal of the above sum to the measured data (effectively putting the SB1 in half space but leaving the LS1c anechoic), yields this:

 

[amirm]

I agree, but the response you measured is arguably not quite representative of the intended use. The NFS gives the anechoic response, but the subwoofer is supposed to be more-or-less in half space (i.e. on the floor).

I hear you but the same applies to any other speaker in bass frequencies. Ultimately we want to measure fully anechoically to see the true response of the speaker itself as to identify any issues with it. In actual use, the room massively modifies the bass response of any speaker. That can't mean that we don't measure bass response or we apply theoretical changes to it.

 

[Davey]

I hear you but the same applies to any other speaker in bass frequencies. Ultimately we want to measure fully anechoically to see the true response of the speaker itself as to identify any issues with it. In actual use, the room massively modifies the bass response of any speaker. That can't mean that we don't measure bass response or we apply theoretical changes to it.

No, the room does not modify the bass response of any speaker.
The measured system response (at typical distance) is modified by the room. (That is quite a different thing.)

In the particular use case for the woofer in this system, the floor effects the measured system response in a way consistent with full-space to half-space transition.
This should be made clear to readers looking at your measured results, because they don't reflect a nominal result.

 

[JSmith]

No, the room does not modify the bass response of any speaker.

"The room dominates the low-frequency sound reproduction in small spaces. It is impossible to assess the true performance of a loudspeaker at low frequencies without considering the room" - Source, Floyd Toole, Sound Reproduction, 3rd Ed.

“Room modes dictate the accuracy of low-frequency reproduction in enclosed spaces. These effects are inseparable from speaker performance in-room.” - Source


JSmith

 

[amirm]

No, the room does not modify the bass response of any speaker.
The measured system response (at typical distance) is modified by the room. (That is quite a different thing.)

Are you being pedantic on me???

In the particular use case for the woofer in this system, the floor effects the measured system response in a way consistent with full-space to half-space transition.

So another speaker would not be used in half-space the same way? Somehow this speaker is unique but a floor standing one is not? How about if I put that floor standing speaker in the corner of the room? I am supposed to show that instead of its anechoic response?

Once more, the room heavily modifies bass response. The purpose of these measurements is not to ever represent that response but rather, what the speaker produces independently of it. That's how we do things. When you deploy this or any other speaker, you measure and correct for that response.

 

[Davey]

"The room dominates the low-frequency sound reproduction in small spaces. It is impossible to assess the true performance of a loudspeaker at low frequencies without considering the room" - Source, Floyd Toole, Sound Reproduction, 3rd Ed.

“Room modes dictate the accuracy of low-frequency reproduction in enclosed spaces. These effects are inseparable from speaker performance in-room.” - Source

Yes. But that doesn't address my comment at all.
Put the microphone one inch from the dust cap of the woofer and see how much the room modifies that measurement. (That's all I'm saying.)
We need to be consistent with the language on this.

 

[amirm]

We need to be consistent with the language on this.

We are very consistent as I test every speaker the same way. If a speaker is in-wall, sure, I measure it as infinite baffle. If it is free-standing, then 4pi space is the norm. You don't want to treat this as half pi and another speaker as 4pi just to boost its results. You want to see the true energy it is pumping into the room just like any other speaker. Simulating actual usage in a room is another matter and not dealt with as you suggest.

 

[olieb]

Great to see and have those exemplary measurements.
Thanks!

I wonder whether the DI dip around 3kHz is more of a "bug" or a "feature", countering the stronger perception of direct frontal sound in relation to diffuse sound in that range?

 

[milosz]

Too expensive.

 

[charlielaub]

I have heard this speaker a couple of times at shows and it indeed does sound very neutral and accurate. It's a pleasure to listen to.

I was a bit surprised to see the low frequency (below 100Hz, or even between 100-300Hz) distortion level getting a bit high in the 96dB measurements. Grimm's SB1 (subwoofer) has a sophisticated feedback system (there is a tech note about it) that should keep distortion very low. I had very high expectations of it but honestly I don't consider circa 10% distortion at 50 Hz,96dB@1m to be all that good from the SB1 and its 12" driver, all things considered. Grimm makes some strong claims about their feedback system such as "has 30dB less distortion" and that "all problems that are related to low frequency resonances and distortion" are "solved". It seems that this is not the case, unless perhaps the feedback loop was defeated during the measurements?

 

[SuicideSquid]

That waterfall graph though. Wow.

 

[bmc0]

I hear you but the same applies to any other speaker in bass frequencies.

It's not quite the same due to the proximity to the floor; the SB1 will get somewhat more reinforcement from the floor reflection than a typical standmount speaker at normal listening distances. I do concede that what I posted isn't quite fair either—it shows the other extreme.

In any case, according to the manual, the user can adjust the SB1 level using the provided software. Setting it to +6dB should yield an anechoic response similar to what is shown in my "half space corrected" plot.

 

[amirm]

It's not quite the same due to the proximity to the floor; the SB1 will get somewhat more reinforcement from the floor reflection than a typical standmount speaker at normal listening distances.

It is 6 inches above the floor. A number of floor standing speakers have port down low there, maybe even lower.

 

[bmc0]

It is 6 inches above the floor. A number of floor standing speakers have port down low there, maybe even lower.

True, and part of the reason I said "typical standmount speaker". It is also quite common for large floorstanders to be designed with a somewhat shelved anechoic response toward the port tuning frequency (see the Revel F208, F228Be, F328Be, etc).