GRIMM Audio LS1c & SB1 DSP Speaker Review

[DoctorRobert]

I am kind of puzzled with many of the negative responses here. What Grimm did, is build the best speaker they could and priced it so that it makes a profit for them. The result is indeed a very good speaker, objectively and subjectively, at a very high price. I will never buy it, way too expensive. But let's agree that this is nothing like the snake oil department, or a rip-off, or anything else like that. They used their engineering capabilities and philosophy to get what they think is the best technical trade-off and Amir confirms that they did well. For me that is a surprising departure from many expensive products I have seen here, which were never that special in the objective sense, just looked weird. I expected the Grimm speakers to end up in that bucket, but clearly they are not like that.

 

[charlielaub]

I am not sure what negative responses you are talking about. No one is bashing the speaker (in the last couple pages of posts at least), we are questioning some aspects of the measured results, e.g. the measurements themselves... NOT the speaker.

 

[Vuki]

I am kind of puzzled with many of the negative responses here. What Grimm did, is build the best speaker they could and priced them so that it makes a profit for them. The result is indeed a very good speaker, objectively and subjectively, at a very high price. I will never buy it, way too expensive. But let's agree that this is nothing like the snake oil department, or a rip-off, or anything else like that. They used their engineering capabilities and philosophy to get what they think is the best technical trade-off and Amir confirms that they did well. For me that is a surprising departure from many expensive products I have seen here, which were never that special in the objective sense, just looked weird. I expected the Grimm speakers to end up in that bucket, but clearly they are not like that.

Most of negative responses are related to the measurements that don't reflect real life performance of the speaker.

 

[Arindal]

Most of negative responses are related to the measurements that don't reflect real life performance of the speaker.

Having heard this model again recently, I would say the measurements reflect pretty well the characteristics of this speaker... under anechoic conditions!

The concept of the Grimm includes a few aspects very specific to it, which have to be taken into account when trying to estimate how it would sound in a room:

- broad baffle leading to de facto broad dispersion of +-90deg listening window
- typical directivity index of a 2-way speaker with huge mid woofer, particularly x-over band cancellation affecting the overall directivity index
- subwoofer close to the floor

These cause differences to other speakers in a room which will make it impossible to predict the sound just based solely on the anechoic data. It would be interesting, though, how the differences would turn out after comparing this model with different ones after in-room EQ applied on both.

 

[Heinrich]

Most of negative responses are related to the measurements that don't reflect real life performance of the speaker.

Well, the construction is based on an idea that has not yet been explicitly mentioned here. Namely that a wide baffle pushes the onset of directivity positively towards low frequencies, and then keep it the same towards higher frequencies. Furthermore, the rounded edges are intended to make everything more even.

I had this idea even before the first LS1, you can do it, it's successful - apparently.

Nevertheless, problems remain. Last but not least, you end up with a pretty plank in the living room. You can like it, you can find it a bit intrusive. The integration of a complete solution for the buyer who is really not interested in tinkering is probably also very successful.

Technically speaking, it's not all pure gold either. So why, really, is the upward radiation disturbed again by the lobing of the crossover (see ceiling bounce)? Why is the interference not directed downwards - that's why the tweeter was initially mounted at the bottom.

IMHO the discussion about the bass completely misses the interesting topics mentioned above. Should we encourage wide(er) baffles? Do you buy (into) it?

 

[kma100]

It would be interesting to get Grimm's perspective on the measurements and many of the questions raised. I don't know if they participate in this forum.

 

[trevor_bartram]

That has pretty much nothing at all to do with Amir's measurements done with a Klippel near field scanner... or a nearfield measurement for that matter.

No it has nothing to do with measurements but it has everything to do with achieving good sound. Despite the DSP owners of the LS1c will have to do some fiddling!

 

[thewas]

Well, the construction is based on an idea that has not yet been explicitly mentioned here. Namely that a wide baffle pushes the onset of directivity positively towards low frequencies, and then keep it the same towards higher frequencies. Furthermore, the rounded edges are intended to make everything more even.

I had this idea even before the first LS1, you can do it, it's successful - apparently.

And relatively not deep baffles, experienced loudspeaker engineers knew such of course since 50+ years, exemplary few such good old designs:

JBL L212 Specifications

https://support.jbl.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dw2c842369/pdfs/L212%5EJBL%5Eom%5E%5E%5E%5E.pdf

Grundig Monolith 190 | Hifi-Wiki

www.hifi-wiki.de

 

[Vuki]

I've listened to wide baffle speakers that sounded great and those that sounded bad.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Sound test of Grimm LS1be vs ATC SCM 100 vs D&D 8C
SQ is very good in this video

 

[thewas]

And relatively not deep baffles, experienced loudspeaker engineers knew such of course since 50+ years, exemplary few such good old designs:

JBL L212 Specifications

https://support.jbl.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dw2c842369/pdfs/L212%5EJBL%5Eom%5E%5E%5E%5E.pdf

Grundig Monolith 190 | Hifi-Wiki

www.hifi-wiki.de

Would like also to mention the current and relatively affordable Heco direct which also did very well in one of the forums blind listening tests compared to much more expensive loudspeakers including the Grimm LS1 with sub:

The result of the poll:

Speaker A - Heco Direct (3000€)



Speaker B - KEF Reference 3 (9000€)


Speaker C - Bowers & Wilkins 802 D3 (22000€) (No manufacturer link found)


Speaker D - Grimm Audio LS1 (22000€) with subwoofer modul

Binaural blind comparison test of 4 loudspeakers - II

Thanks to @ctrl for a very fun experiment once again! I think it's very interesting that there once again was a clear favorite. Vox populi seems to work! I went with the majority and chose D. I really don't think I can explain too well why, though. As I wrote in the thread I thought this was a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Arindal]

Would like also to mention the current and relatively affordable Heco direct which also did very well in one of the forums blind listening tests compared to much more expensive loudspeakers including the Grimm LS1 with sub:

AFAIK this was a virtual comparison using some method of folded reverb convolution plus HRTF virtualization. In such test I would always expect the speaker adding the least of annoying reverb and resonances to win which is the case with broad-baffle concepts offering a 2pi dispersion pattern. These methods really say absolutely nothing about sound in a room or sound quality.

 

[thewas]

AFAIK this was a virtual comparison using some method of folded reverb convolution plus HRTF virtualization. In such test I would always expect the speaker adding the least of annoying reverb and resonances to win which is the case with broad-baffle concepts offering a 2pi dispersion pattern. These methods really say absolutely nothing about sound in a room or sound quality.

Those were binaural recordings (by lowbeats.de) made in an EBU-Tech 3276 compliant studio. The older recordings, used in our poll, were made in their own acoustically treated listening room (here is the link to the translation or use the translator of your choice). In the pictures you can see the typical setup.


Two MBHO small-diaphragm condenser microphones with free-field equalized omnidirectional characteristics in AB configuration were used for the binaural recording.
The current binaural recordings were performed with a KU100.
More details about their binaural recordings can be found here (here is the link to the translation or use the translator of your choice).

When listening to them and analysing the voting comments they at least worked quite well from tonal point of view, but this is off topic here, if you want to discuss it better use that thread.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

This only goes to show how good and affordable the Genelec 8361a really are.

 

[DSJR]

I wonder if the LS1be
Would have sounded/measured better
I have a weakness for berillyum

View attachment 452247

That bloody bass cone used to take off big-time in the upper kHz region. I appreciate a speaker like this has a proper high order crossover, but this resonance is still there and the hope always is that if the cone is excited by hf from the tweeter, that it'll be so low down in volume we won't hear it. My amateurish take is still that I'd rather this tin-can resonance isn't there at all and there are some speaker drivers out there that are very clean at the top of their range

 

[beagleman]

Looking over their web site, for over 5 minutes now and gave up.....trying to see what size woofer and subwoofer they use??

How can it be SO HARD to just put basic information about a product.??

 

[kyuu]

Looking over their web site, for over 5 minutes now and gave up.....trying to see what size woofer and subwoofer they use??

How can it be SO HARD to just put basic information about a product.??

Basic specifications are for peasants.

 

[IamJF]

The 700Hz THD peak ... reminds me of the KH120ii peak no one else could measure ... (it's not in Neumanns measurement and not in mine with an Audio Precision system and dead silent measurement room).

 

[Pearljam5000]

Which monitors/ speakers come close to the

LS1C but cost much less?​

 

[Davey]

Looking over their web site, for over 5 minutes now and gave up.....trying to see what size woofer and subwoofer they use??

How can it be SO HARD to just put basic information about a product.??

The woofer is a Seas Excel W22. The tweeter a Seas 27 DXT (H1499).
The subwoofer is 10". It looks much like a Dayton RSS series driver. But could be something else.