Grid Storage Systems for Renewable Energy - Technology and Projects (No Politics)

[Willem]

I am sure it is a technical achievement but I doubt the practicality. Folding bikes invariably have to be lifted for parts of the journey and any motor system makes them unpleasantly heavy. Folders are for short distances, e.g. a ride to the train station, next in the train in folded condition, and then folded out for a ride from the final station to the destination. We have a Brompton for that, and it is unsurpassed for this. It is great for shortish rides and electric drive is pointless for that.
Right now I am on the train to the annual three day hiking and biking show in the Netherlands (20k visitors) to give presentations on cycle touring for beginners. I will tell a mostly elderly audience that they do not need an Ebike to ride from the Netherlands to the south of France in three weeks while camping for the nights.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Surprised no one posted this article. Directly on topic. Discarded EV batteries supplying Grid storage for solar plant.

The big reuse: 25 MWh of ex-car batteries go on the grid in California

Batteries with performance too low for driving can still store a lot of charge.

arstechnica.com

 

[kongwee]

 

[kongwee]

World's largest iron-chromium flow battery successfully tested in N China

China's first megawatt iron-chromium flow battery energy storage demonstration project was successfully tested in north China's Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region on Tuesday.

news.cgtn.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

Here’s what Redwood learned in its first year of EV battery recycling

The company recycled 500,000 lbs of material from 1,268 EV battery packs.

arstechnica.com

Redwood recycles 500,000 lbs of EV battery packs and recovers 95% of the lithium.

 

[MediumRare]

Here’s what Redwood learned in its first year of EV battery recycling

The company recycled 500,000 lbs of material from 1,268 EV battery packs.

arstechnica.com

Redwood recycles 500,000 lbs of EV battery packs and recovers 95% of the lithium.

At $16.60/lb that's $8.3 million in recovered value, or $6,500/vehicle. Of course, numbers are on the back of a cocktail napkin, so who knows what it will really be. But it's sounding viable.

 

[Blumlein 88]

At $16.60/lb that's $8.3 million in recovered value, or $6,500/vehicle. Of course, numbers are on the back of a cocktail napkin, so who knows what it will really be. But it's sounding viable.

Well that isn't 500,000 lbs of lithium however. Most battery packs have less than 10% lithium by weight. Though the company will recover other materials besides just the lithium. Like graphite and cobalt.

Breakdown of raw materials in Tesla's batteries and possible bottlenecks

Because of its name, lithium-ion (li-ion), people think that li-ion batteries are primarily made of lithium and that if we...

electrek.co

 

[MediumRare]

Well that isn't 500,000 lbs of lithium however. Most battery packs have less than 10% lithium by weight. Though the company will recover other materials besides just the lithium. Like graphite and cobalt.

Breakdown of raw materials in Tesla's batteries and possible bottlenecks

Because of its name, lithium-ion (li-ion), people think that li-ion batteries are primarily made of lithium and that if we...

electrek.co

Agreed. Here’s a slightly out of date analysis. The values are much lower, but the gross margin of recycling is claimed to be 89% (excluding the price paid for the batteries), so still pretty attractive. More insider or even publicly available detail would be helpful. https://glginsights.com/articles/th...ion-battery-recycling-are-strong-and-growing/

 

[MediumRare]

Well that isn't 500,000 lbs of lithium however. Most battery packs have less than 10% lithium by weight. Though the company will recover other materials besides just the lithium. Like graphite and cobalt.

Breakdown of raw materials in Tesla's batteries and possible bottlenecks

Because of its name, lithium-ion (li-ion), people think that li-ion batteries are primarily made of lithium and that if we...

electrek.co

This is a deep dive, but reinforces that 1. Logistics costs are critical and 2. It’s too early to say anything concrete. That being said, potential profit is $2k/vehicle for larger packs, so there’s plenty of incentive to invest and optimize the end-to-end processes. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004221007550

 

[kongwee]

 

[MediumRare]

Do you know why they have to be so tall?

 

[MediumRare]

I heard a discussion with a scientist from Oak Ridge, this weekend, who said we will be building a DC transmission grid in parallel with the existing alternating current grid, enabling higher efficiency long-distance electricity transmission. That will help shift power across the continent from sunny and windy areas to places that need the power, also reducing the need for grid storage and increasing reliability. AC will still be used for local distribution and short-range transmission. https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-systems

 

[Blumlein 88]

China has a 2100 mile (3300 km) long 1.1 megavolt DC power line. That would nearly go across the 48 states of the USA. No need to sync 60 hz, hook on and distribute locally with the existing AC power grids.

I think the reason transmission towers are so tall is firstly for safety due to the high voltages. Secondly there is a sweet spot for spacing, sag of the line and traversing the up and down of terrains vs height. It works out such tall towers are a more efficient way to run the lines over great distances.

 

[ctrl]

For those who missed the news, the mechanism primarily responsible for self-discharge of Li batteries has been discovered - here or here.

Who does not know that if the smartphone is not used for a few weeks, it can lose a good 10% of its stored energy. On a small scale this is not a problem, on a large scale (e.g. huge battery storage or the loss of energy by all Li-batteries worldwide) it is.

The cause of this type of self-discharge depends, and any professional criminal will be able to confirm this, on the correct choice of tape.
In fact, a PET tape (to bond cell layers as tightly as possible) is responsible for the formation of a "redox shuttle molecule" capable of transporting an electron from the cathode to the anode within the battery cell. A Li-ion must then migrate from the anode to the cathode to balance the charge. Which closes the cycle of self-discharge.

For more details the two papers:
Reversible Self-discharge of LFP/Graphite and NMC811/Graphite Cells Originating from Redox Shuttle Generation

Identification of Redox Shuttle Generated in LFP/Graphite and NMC811/Graphite Cells

An interview with two of the authors of the papers, is unfortunately only in German:

 

[Willem]

The new plan for the Dutch (and neighbouring countries) high voltage grid includes mostly DC lines. Many will be underground. They will connect to neighbouring countries to stabilize the load.

 

[Doodski]

The new plan for the Dutch (and neighbouring countries) high voltage grid includes mostly DC lines. Many will be underground. They will connect to neighbouring countries to stabilize the load.

The DC transmission technology was going to be used here but the Canadian AC transmission grid is connected to the USA AC grid in ~4 places (maybe more) and they regulate all from those intersections. DC transmission would not fit at all into the grid that is presently there is what I read some time ago. If I remember correctly the DC transmission method requires some very large unique transformers at each end of the transmission. Bigger than the usual stuff. Transformer availability is slim to nothing and requires special orders. So if something goes down it's going to be a major upset event was a drawback.

 

[Marc v E]

The new plan for the Dutch (and neighbouring countries) high voltage grid includes mostly DC lines. Many will be underground. They will connect to neighbouring countries to stabilize the load.

Where did you read that? I'm curious why they are choosing DC.

Is it going to be Edison vs Tesla all over again?

Iirc the market and engineers decided that ac was better over long distance.

 

[Marc v E]

Ah I seem to have found a possible answer:

"It would appear that alternating current had all but obliterated direct current, but in recent years direct current has seen a bit of a renaissance.

Today our electricity is still predominantly powered by alternating current, but computers, LEDs, solar cells and electric vehicles all run on DC power. And methods are now available for converting direct current to higher and lower voltages. Since direct current is more stable, companies are finding ways of using high voltage direct current (HVDC) to transport electricity long distances with less electricity loss."

The War of the Currents: AC vs. DC Power

Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison played key roles in the War of the Currents. Learn more about AC and DC power -- and how they affect our electricity use today.

www.energy.gov

 

[Willem]

Indeed. It is in the new Tennet plan.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Where did you read that? I'm curious why they are choosing DC.

Is it going to be Edison vs Tesla all over again?

Iirc the market and engineers decided that ac was better over long distance.

Difference between AC & DC Transmission System & Power Lines

Following are the technical advantages and disadvantages of both AC and DC power transmission lines systems.

www.electricaltechnology.org

Mainly with no reactance with DC, over long distances there is less loss of energy with DC, plus you only need two lines, not three for power transmission.

More involved explanation here:

AC vs. DC Powerlines and the Electrical Grid

Ever since the earliest examples of long distance electric power transmission, overhead transmission lines have been the preferred method for transporting large amounts of electric power. As the length of any conventional transmission line increases,...

energycentral.com

The reason AC won out back when was the transformers. You could step voltage up and down. Couldn't do that with DC. So either long lines had high voltage and so would customers or you had low voltage DC distribution which was a problem over distance. Now we have high voltage efficient DC-DC converters. So there are a number of advantages in favor of DC for long transmission lines at very high voltages. Whether that will ever result in DC in the home I don't know probably not for a long time.